Sheep/Goats Judgement not same as Great White Throne?

[Vine Abider]

18 hours ago, tatwo said:

Greetings @Vine Abider...interesting conversation...thank you.

I was thinking to myself…Lord…”Vine Abider” loves you and…has in prior conversations…brought forth light for me and others…what am I missing here? I just stopped and asked the Lord for understanding…first because of the respect I have for you as a brother who carefully studies and secondly because I have been working on “who” it actually is that is on the earth during the millennial age where the Body of Christ rules with the Lord Yahshua.

Check this out…if you are working from the “King James or the New King James” translations…the verse that seems to me to be creating this “difference” of interpretation between us is…Matthew 25:40…

Mat 25:40 KJV  “And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.”

Mat 25:40 NKJV  “And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.”

I think I can see how “you are seeing” what I referenced as a 3^rd group that I don’t see. It says “unto the least of these” apparently signifying a 3^rd group because what follows that is “my brethren” making it seem like there are the “least of these” and separate from them is “my brethren.”

I do often reference the KJV and the NKJV in my studies…I have for many years…however my primary study version is the NASB. Look at how Matthew 25:40 is written in the NASB…

Mat 25:40 NASB “The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.”

Mat 25:40 KJV  “And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.”

In the NASB…the “least of these” from the KJV…is written as “these brothers of Mine” thereby signifying that both those who are "serving and those who are being served" are His righteous brothers.

Whereas in the KJV it appears to reveal them as separate…can you see what I mean?

Here's a few additional interpretations and version for consideration.

Mat 25:40 GW  "The king will answer them, 'I can guarantee this truth: Whatever you did for one of my brothers or sisters, no matter how unimportant they seemed, you did for me.'

Mat 25:40 NET  And the king will answer them, ‘I tell you the truth, just as you did it for one of the least of these brothers or sisters of mine, you did it for me.’

Mat 25:40 NIV  "The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

Mat 25:40 NRSV  And the king will answer them, 'Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family, you did it to me.'

Tatwo...:)

Thanks for the kind words - and I have enjoyed your communications as well!  I actually reference the KJV/NKJV rarely, and my go-to is usually the NASB (although I frequent bible-hub and look at several).

So who do you think will populate the kingdom age from the nations?

[Jedi4Yahweh]

14 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

Thanks for the kind words - and I have enjoyed your communications as well!  I actually reference the KJV/NKJV rarely, and my go-to is usually the NASB (although I frequent bible-hub and look at several).

So who do you think will populate the kingdom age from the nations?

It seems according to Zec 14 and Isa 2 that there will be surviving nations that will enter the reign of Christ, no indication that these nations were prior Christians. 

Zec 14:9-19 - And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and [from] the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses. And [men] shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited. And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth. And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour. And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance. And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague. And it shall come to pass, [that] every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. And it shall be, [that] whoso will not come up of [all] the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that [have] no [rain]; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Isa 2:2-4 KJV - And it shall come to pass in the last days, [that] the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

[tatwo]

20 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

So who do you think will populate the kingdom age from the nations?

I am thinking about how to answer Brother Vine. Thanks for the question.

Tatwo...:)

[Marathoner]

In response to the OP, I believe that the "sheep/goats" judgment is indeed the same as the great white throne at the end of all things. 

First, it's worth noting that a peculiar paradigm of belief and adherence to a specific school of theology is required to partition one from the other; in my opinion, this partitioning is a symptom of "front loading" or, pushing the cart before the horse. What's the common denominator between the "sheep and goats" story and the great white throne? Eternal punishment. That's also the loose thread dangling from front-loading partitions where none is explicitly stated nor even implied. 

Another parallel between the two is witnessed in the estate of the sheep (enter the kingdom) and the dead who are spared from eternal punishment. Neither elaborate on what happens to them after they are rewarded/spared from the lake of fire. We only know that some of the dead (great white throne) are not cast into the lake of fire, and that the sheep are rewarded (sheep and goats). If all of the dead are to be cast into the lake of fire, then scripture would explicitly state that is so. On the contrary... scripture states that those who worshiped the beast, and whose names are not found in the book of life, are cast into the lake of fire. That's not all of the dead. 

The "sheep and goats" is a parable which is representative of the great white throne judgment in my estimation.

[Vine Abider]

51 minutes ago, Marathoner said:

The "sheep and goats" is a parable which is representative of the great white throne judgment in my estimation.

I always sort of thought that too.  However, the timing is different in scripture.  The sheep/goats account in Matthew 25 starts with, "When the Son of Man comes in His glory . . ."  But the great white throne in Rev 20 is depicted right after the thousand years: "When the thousand years is over."  The situation & dialog in these two passages is markedly different.

However, those of a amillennialistic persuasion would view that timeline differently (which I must confess I don't understand).

(BTW - Technically it's not really a parable, as Christ is just portraying what will happen.) 

[Marathoner]

15 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

I always sort of thought that too.  However, the timing is different in scripture.  The sheep/goats account in Matthew 25 starts with, "When the Son of Man comes in His glory . . ."  But the great white throne in Rev 20 is depicted right after the thousand years: "When the thousand years is over."  The situation & dialog in these two passages is markedly different.

However, those of a amillennialistic persuasion would view that timeline differently (which I must confess I don't understand).

(BTW - Technically it's not really a parable, as Christ is just portraying what will happen.) 

Parables were used to portray real things, brother. If they weren't representative of real things, then why did the Lord explain what they meant to the 12 afterward? Just as well, prophecy is explicity demonstrated to utilize symbolism in scripture. 

A peculiar paradigm (dispensationalism) and school of theology (premillennialism) is required to impose conditions on that parable which are neither implied nor explicitly stated by scripture. 

If the parable occurs earlier than the great white throne described in Revelation, why does the parable refer to eternal punishment? That should only occur at the great white throne, yes? 

[Vine Abider]

1 hour ago, Marathoner said:

If the parable occurs earlier than the great white throne described in Revelation, why does the parable refer to eternal punishment? That should only occur at the great white throne, yes? 

It would seem so, but everything doesn't fit so neatly in this 'parable'* to make it the great white throne . . . at least to my mind.  And when one can't get "all the squirrels up the one tree" in scripture, perhaps it's time to look at a different tree.

* it is often called a parable, but some commentators observe that it doesn't fit the definition of a parable well.  One source says: It is not actually a parable, since it is not introduced with the typical ‘The kingdom is like…’ and it is not making use of a story from another context, such as farming and economics, to draw out a principle.  from here: https://www.psephizo.com/biblical-studies/who-are-the-sheep-and-the-goats-in-matt-25/

[Jedi4Yahweh]

38 minutes ago, Vine Abider said:

* it is often called a parable, but some commentators observe that it doesn't fit the definition of a parable well.  One source says: It is not actually a parable, since it is not introduced with the typical ‘The kingdom is like…’ and it is not making use of a story from another context, such as farming and economics, to draw out a principle.  from here: https://www.psephizo.com/biblical-studies/who-are-the-sheep-and-the-goats-in-matt-25/

Agreed not a parable but does give some symbolic imagery of sheep vs. goats.

[kenny2212]

It's Christians who die during the 7-year tribulation period that live in the millennium (Rev. 20:4). The Sheep of the Sheep and Goat judgement go to Heaven. The Great White Throne Judgement judges both the righteous and unrighteous dead of the tribulation period (Rev. 20: 5, 6, 12, 15). The Bema Judgement takes place in Heaven for believers.

Edited December 6, 2024 by kenny2212

[Vine Abider]

28 minutes ago, kenny2212 said:

It's Christians who die during the 7-year tribulation period that live in the millennium (Rev. 20:4). The Sheep of the Sheep and Goat judgement go to Heaven. The Great White Throne Judgement judges both the righteous and unrighteous dead of the tribulation period (Rev. 20: 5, 6, 12, 15). The Bema Judgement takes place in Heaven for believers.

It seems like there is a lot of mixture in what you said . . . can you clarify?