I Will Greatly Multiply Your Sorrow

[Katie Rose Müller]

“I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception; in pain you shall bring forth children" - Genesis 3:16

As I read that I wondered: Is conception tied to sorrow or is conception merely multiplied? Example:

• I will greatly multiply your sorrow [but]

• I will multiply your conception

• In pain you shall bring forth children

Would the multiplication of conception be redemptive to the sorrow? Because conception and bringing forth children are two separate acts. One is pregnancy; one is full-term labor.

John 16:21-22 A woman, when she is in labor, has sorrow because her hour has come; but as soon as she has given birth to the child, she no longer remembers the anguish, for joy that a human being has been born into the world.

So, the multiplication of children would be a joyful thing, even if labor is awful.

See, I'm just not convinced at the traditional idea that Eve's punishment was painful labor and that all women suffer hard labor pains because of her. The more I think about, this view point makes God look like a sadist, which we all know He isn't. I don't see how a woman can not have labor pains because, well. . .biology. A lot of contractions and dilations are going on to give birth to an 8 or 9lb baby. I also believe the fall was necessary or at least foreseen, and so no matter what, sin or no sin, childbirth would have been and will continue to be painful.

God states "I" claiming He will do a specific thing: "I will multiply your sorrow"; "I will multiple your conception"; but I does not seem to be connected to painful labor: this reads more like a statement. It doesn't read, "I will give you painful labor" it reads more like a heads up, childbirth is going to hurt. Additionally, though I didn't quote it I is not connected with man ruling over woman: this also reads like a statement. Seems to me that painful childbirth and the male-female hierarchy were already formerly established and are natural law, not punishments.

Is the only real punishment (or consequence) here the fact that Eve now has multiplied sorrow?

John 16:22 Therefore you now have sorrow; but I will see you again and your heart will rejoice, and your joy no one will take from you.

Jesus Christ is the 2nd Adam and the Church is, by implication therefore, the 2nd Eve. Before Christ's crucifixion He tells His disciples (the first-fruits of the church) that they have sorrow, and why, because Christ was departing the world to go to the Father.

Likewise we see, not so much God departing Eve, but Eve departing God and being cast from Eden. A literary-poetic juxtaposition, so to speak. Either way, Eve was without God in the world, and the Church is waiting for Christ to return and because He is not in the world and we are not Eden, we have sorrow.

So if God actively multiplied sorrow, the only thing God actively did in Genesis 3 was cast them from Eden and cut them off from God. You now have sorrow, BUT I will see you again

God further then multiples Eve's conception: multiplying her ability to bear children and it is by Woman that Christ would come. Eve was cast from Eden, but through childbearing and the promise of a savior, God is saying, You will see me again.

So, is the only punishment the multiplication of sorrow by being in the world and not a multiplication of sorrow by conception; childbirth; or martial hierarchy, just simply, not being in Eden. (And yes, I'm aware that by not being in Eden were are subjected to high-risk pregnancies, but death by childbearing doesn't seems like any more of a curse then death by disease, persecution, etc. which are not gender discriminatory.)

Edited December 11, 2024 by Katie Rose Müller

[AdHoc]

1 hour ago, Katie Rose Müller said:

“I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception; in pain you shall bring forth children" - Genesis 3:16

As I read that I wondered: Is conception tied to sorrow or is conception merely multiplied? Example:

• I will greatly multiply your sorrow [but]

• I will multiply your conception

• In pain you shall bring forth children

Would the multiplication of conception be redemptive to the sorrow? Because conception and bringing forth children are two separate acts. One is pregnancy; one is full-term labor.

John 16:21-22 A woman, when she is in labor, has sorrow because her hour has come; but as soon as she has given birth to the child, she no longer remembers the anguish, for joy that a human being has been born into the world.

So, the multiplication of children would be a joyful thing, even if labor is awful.

See, I'm just not convinced at the traditional idea that Eve's punishment was painful labor and that all women suffer hard labor pains because of her. The more I think about, this view point makes God look like a sadist, which we all know He isn't. I don't see how a woman can not have labor pains because, well. . .biology. A lot of contractions and dilations are going on to give birth to an 8 or 9lb baby. I also believe the fall was necessary or at least foreseen, and so no matter what, sin or no sin, childbirth would have been and will continue to be painful.

God states "I" claiming He will do a specific thing: "I will multiply your sorrow"; "I will multiple your conception"; but I does not seem to be connected to painful labor: this reads more like a statement. It doesn't read, "I will give you painful labor" it reads more like a heads up, childbirth is going to hurt. Additionally, though I didn't quote it I is not connected with man ruling over woman: this also reads like a statement. Seems to me that painful childbirth and the male-female hierarchy were already formerly established and are natural law, not punishments.

Is the only real punishment (or consequence) here the fact that Eve now has multiplied sorrow?

John 16:22 Therefore you now have sorrow; but I will see you again and your heart will rejoice, and your joy no one will take from you.

Jesus Christ is the 2nd Adam and the Church is, by implication therefore, the 2nd Eve. Before Christ's crucifixion He tells His disciples (the first-fruits of the church) that they have sorrow, and why, because Christ was departing the world to go to the Father.

Likewise we see, not so much God departing Eve, but Eve departing God and being cast from Eden. A literary-poetic juxtaposition, so to speak. Either way, Eve was without God in the world, and the Church is waiting for Christ to return and because He is not in the world and we are not Eden, we have sorrow.

So if God actively multiplied sorrow, the only thing God actively did in Genesis 3 was cast them from Eden and cut them off from God. You now have sorrow, BUT I will see you again

God further then multiples Eve's conception: multiplying her ability to bear children and it is by Woman that Christ would come. Eve was cast from Eden, but through childbearing and the promise of a savior, God is saying, You will see me again.

So, is the only punishment the multiplication of sorrow by being in the world and not a multiplication of sorrow by conception; childbirth; or martial hierarchy, just simply, not being in Eden. (And yes, I'm aware that by not being in Eden were are subjected to high-risk pregnancies, but death by childbearing doesn't seems like any more of a curse then death by disease, persecution, etc. which are not gender discriminatory.)

The grammar indicates that child birth would have sorrow but that God would multiply it. Having had the privilege of watching my wife give birth to all our children, I can only confirm exceptional sorrow. Eve never had a child before sin came in so there is nothing to compare it with.

Multiplying conception is logical. Death came in and the numbers to "fill and/or replenish the earth" became doubtful.

In Genesis 1:11-12 God made a Law - the Law of KINDS. On this hangs the deity of Jesus. What ever Eve was she imparted it to her daughters.

[Katie Rose Müller]

But I have seen even animals in hard labor; why would God punish female animals as well when this is against women, so Eve didn't impart this to cattle or cats or anything else according to the law of kinds. I'm still not convinced of the traditional view; I'd like for the grammar to be explained. Sorrow in conception would happen during sexual intercourse, not the childbirth. And there's little sorrow in conception.

Edited December 11, 2024 by Katie Rose Müller

[Dennis1209]

It appears to me that, in the fall, there were only Adam and Eve; Cain had not yet been conceived, according to my understanding of scripture. I have wondered about this myself, and I will speculate a little. I have more questions and no answers. I suspect that, initially, childbearing was not to be as painful and laborious as it was intended before the fall.

After being naked and without shame, why suddenly did they want to cover and hide their private parts using a fig leaf? Why did God curse Eve and her descendants with the pain of childbearing after that? Do we suppose a sexual sin, commonality, or association between the two?

Genesis 2:24-25 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. ²⁵ And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

Suppose this is chronological, not having a mother, or concept-experience of parenting and having a child. How did they understand this command of paternal and maternal, father and mother? When, how, and why did they instantly become ashamed?

I have heard some wild theories and expository on this. Nonetheless, it is curious and leaves me clueless.

Historically, bringing a child into this world has been a blessing and celebration. Is the sorrow mentioned pertain to bringing a child into this sinful world? Is it the labor, pain, and suffering of delivery, the mother wishing she had refrained from this, and temporarily blaming the father for her pains and sorrow? Or something else?

[missmuffet]

4 hours ago, Katie Rose Müller said:

“I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception; in pain you shall bring forth children" - Genesis 3:16

As I read that I wondered: Is conception tied to sorrow or is conception merely multiplied? Example:

• I will greatly multiply your sorrow [but]

• I will multiply your conception

• In pain you shall bring forth children

Would the multiplication of conception be redemptive to the sorrow? Because conception and bringing forth children are two separate acts. One is pregnancy; one is full-term labor.

John 16:21-22 A woman, when she is in labor, has sorrow because her hour has come; but as soon as she has given birth to the child, she no longer remembers the anguish, for joy that a human being has been born into the world.

So, the multiplication of children would be a joyful thing, even if labor is awful.

See, I'm just not convinced at the traditional idea that Eve's punishment was painful labor and that all women suffer hard labor pains because of her. The more I think about, this view point makes God look like a sadist, which we all know He isn't. I don't see how a woman can not have labor pains because, well. . .biology. A lot of contractions and dilations are going on to give birth to an 8 or 9lb baby. I also believe the fall was necessary or at least foreseen, and so no matter what, sin or no sin, childbirth would have been and will continue to be painful.

God states "I" claiming He will do a specific thing: "I will multiply your sorrow"; "I will multiple your conception"; but I does not seem to be connected to painful labor: this reads more like a statement. It doesn't read, "I will give you painful labor" it reads more like a heads up, childbirth is going to hurt. Additionally, though I didn't quote it I is not connected with man ruling over woman: this also reads like a statement. Seems to me that painful childbirth and the male-female hierarchy were already formerly established and are natural law, not punishments.

Is the only real punishment (or consequence) here the fact that Eve now has multiplied sorrow?

John 16:22 Therefore you now have sorrow; but I will see you again and your heart will rejoice, and your joy no one will take from you.

Jesus Christ is the 2nd Adam and the Church is, by implication therefore, the 2nd Eve. Before Christ's crucifixion He tells His disciples (the first-fruits of the church) that they have sorrow, and why, because Christ was departing the world to go to the Father.

Likewise we see, not so much God departing Eve, but Eve departing God and being cast from Eden. A literary-poetic juxtaposition, so to speak. Either way, Eve was without God in the world, and the Church is waiting for Christ to return and because He is not in the world and we are not Eden, we have sorrow.

So if God actively multiplied sorrow, the only thing God actively did in Genesis 3 was cast them from Eden and cut them off from God. You now have sorrow, BUT I will see you again

God further then multiples Eve's conception: multiplying her ability to bear children and it is by Woman that Christ would come. Eve was cast from Eden, but through childbearing and the promise of a savior, God is saying, You will see me again.

So, is the only punishment the multiplication of sorrow by being in the world and not a multiplication of sorrow by conception; childbirth; or martial hierarchy, just simply, not being in Eden. (And yes, I'm aware that by not being in Eden were are subjected to high-risk pregnancies, but death by childbearing doesn't seems like any more of a curse then death by disease, persecution, etc. which are not gender discriminatory.)

It has to do with the labor pains a woman has to endure giving birth to a child. That is the consequence to woman

because of Eve's sin. Perhaps sorrow means pain and it can include female's in the animal kindom

as well.

Edited December 11, 2024 by missmuffet

[BornAgain490]

3 hours ago, Katie Rose Müller said:

“I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception; in pain you shall bring forth children" - Genesis 3:16

As I read that I wondered: Is conception tied to sorrow or is conception merely multiplied? Example:

• I will greatly multiply your sorrow [but]

• I will multiply your conception

• In pain you shall bring forth children

Would the multiplication of conception be redemptive to the sorrow? Because conception and bringing forth children are two separate acts. One is pregnancy; one is full-term labor.

John 16:21-22 A woman, when she is in labor, has sorrow because her hour has come; but as soon as she has given birth to the child, she no longer remembers the anguish, for joy that a human being has been born into the world.

So, the multiplication of children would be a joyful thing, even if labor is awful.

See, I'm just not convinced at the traditional idea that Eve's punishment was painful labor and that all women suffer hard labor pains because of her. The more I think about, this view point makes God look like a sadist, which we all know He isn't. I don't see how a woman can not have labor pains because, well. . .biology. A lot of contractions and dilations are going on to give birth to an 8 or 9lb baby. I also believe the fall was necessary or at least foreseen, and so no matter what, sin or no sin, childbirth would have been and will continue to be painful.

God states "I" claiming He will do a specific thing: "I will multiply your sorrow"; "I will multiple your conception"; but I does not seem to be connected to painful labor: this reads more like a statement. It doesn't read, "I will give you painful labor" it reads more like a heads up, childbirth is going to hurt. Additionally, though I didn't quote it I is not connected with man ruling over woman: this also reads like a statement. Seems to me that painful childbirth and the male-female hierarchy were already formerly established and are natural law, not punishments.

Is the only real punishment (or consequence) here the fact that Eve now has multiplied sorrow?

John 16:22 Therefore you now have sorrow; but I will see you again and your heart will rejoice, and your joy no one will take from you.

Jesus Christ is the 2nd Adam and the Church is, by implication therefore, the 2nd Eve. Before Christ's crucifixion He tells His disciples (the first-fruits of the church) that they have sorrow, and why, because Christ was departing the world to go to the Father.

Likewise we see, not so much God departing Eve, but Eve departing God and being cast from Eden. A literary-poetic juxtaposition, so to speak. Either way, Eve was without God in the world, and the Church is waiting for Christ to return and because He is not in the world and we are not Eden, we have sorrow.

So if God actively multiplied sorrow, the only thing God actively did in Genesis 3 was cast them from Eden and cut them off from God. You now have sorrow, BUT I will see you again

God further then multiples Eve's conception: multiplying her ability to bear children and it is by Woman that Christ would come. Eve was cast from Eden, but through childbearing and the promise of a savior, God is saying, You will see me again.

So, is the only punishment the multiplication of sorrow by being in the world and not a multiplication of sorrow by conception; childbirth; or martial hierarchy, just simply, not being in Eden. (And yes, I'm aware that by not being in Eden were are subjected to high-risk pregnancies, but death by childbearing doesn't seems like any more of a curse then death by disease, persecution, etc. which are not gender discriminatory.)

Greatly multiplying Eve's sorrow begins with the sorrow of having died spiritually when she ate. Her multiplied sorrows thereafter compound the sorrow of sin, for all of her children will be conceived in sin. Sorrows multiply when sinful children commit sinful acts that, while not counted against the parents, nonetheless add sorrow to mothers.

In Eve's case, she being blamed by God, the one that was deceived and encouraged her husband to sin, likely accepted some degree of blame when her son Cain became a murderer of her son Able.  Sorrow is multiplied  Then Eve likely had to hear of the sins of the scores of other children she had, as well as the hundreds of grandchildren, and the thousands of great grandchildren, etc eyc etc. Sorrows were multiplied. 

The relief of haven given birth is temporary joy, but the sorrow of having sinful offspring is multiplied by many hundreds of years of submitting to her husband and going through labor and delivery every 9 or 10 months. 

[farouk]

15 hours ago, Katie Rose Müller said:

But I have seen even animals in hard labor; why would God punish female animals as well when this is against women, so Eve didn't impart this to cattle or cats or anything else according to the law of kinds. I'm still not convinced of the traditional view; I'd like for the grammar to be explained. Sorrow in conception would happen during sexual intercourse, not the childbirth. And there's little sorrow in conception.

Hi @Katie Rose Müller Romans 5.12-21 is relevant:

" Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

¹³ (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

¹⁴ Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

¹⁵ But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

¹⁶ And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

¹⁷ For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

¹⁸ Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

¹⁹ For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

²⁰ Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

²¹ That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord."

[Katie Rose Müller]

@farouk I don't find this helpful; can you explain how it's helpful regarding my original post? How does this correlate to what is sorrowful: being in the world, conception, or childbirth.

[farouk]

23 minutes ago, Katie Rose Müller said:

@farouk I don't find this helpful; can you explain how it's helpful regarding my original post? How does this correlate to what is sorrowful: being in the world, conception, or childbirth.

In relation to the passing on of sin - those other aspects flow from it.

[Neighbor]

16 hours ago, Katie Rose Müller said:

But I have seen even animals in hard labor; why would God punish female animals as well when this is against women, so Eve didn't impart this to cattle or cats or anything else according to the law of kinds. I'm still not convinced of the traditional view; I'd like for the grammar to be explained. Sorrow in conception would happen during sexual intercourse, not the childbirth. And there's little sorrow in conception.

Romans 8:18–22 ESV

"For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us.  For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God.  For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.  For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now."