How God Is Bringing The Good Work In Us To Completion

[AdHoc]

3 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

You, I, and @AdHoc have had lively discussions about this maturing age in the kingdom. I will not rehash this concept for or against it because I am not convinced. It all boils down to our exegesis, I suppose.

I have never heard that view taught as fundamental anywhere in the churches I have attended or in any commentaries I have consulted. Then again, most pastors avoid the Books of Daniel, Revelation, and Prophecy because of their divisiveness.  

Moreover, I have found nothing indicating such a view by the Anti-Nicene fathers to the reformation. Perhaps someone can direct me to who and when this unorthodox view was proposed.

I am always open to changing my view, but thus far, lacking any historical exegesis before the reformation (even today), I consider it potentially reformed theology.

First, I respect your view and desire to have proof of some historical source. The case of Jesus versus the Pharisees shows how historical precedent is desired by men.

I do not say this lightly, for you are seeking and that is what the Lord requires. But this Forum I understood was for OUR opinions. And the documentation was to be scripture. I think you will agree that that's what I held to. It doesn't make me correct, but I presented my arguments from scripture alone.

You will make a decision, which is what the Lord wants. It will be based on criteria that you find good. Here is a short summary of what I presented to you.
1. God had a plan and it has not, and will not, change. His councils are immutable
2. The coming Kingdom is a reward
3. The coming Kingdom will be administered by men who are mature, righteous and who are intimate friends of Christ
4. Concerning the coming Kingdom of Christ, Christ Himself said it was a harvest
5. A Harvest has different gatherings
6. A Harvest has different results - some 100, some 60, some zero fruit
7. John 15 says that the Father - the Farmer, will be highly angry at zero return
8. 1st Corinthians 3 says that much depends on your way of building - YOUR BUILDING

This is what the Bible says and what I say. Israel is our pattern. What happened to them will happen to us. 2 of 600,000 soldiers made it into the goal. Moses didn't. God killed 24,000 of His people for fornicating with a strange nation. He also wiped out the whole world for toying with how man is "generated". He is a fearsome God. He is also a merciful God, but the cost of His mercy was enormous. He is known for doing what He said He will. All I did was to point you to what He said - not what Luther or Darby said. But the decision is yours.

Don't trust the modern Christian. He's got oil in his Lamp - but not in his VESSEL. He thinks things are for FREE

[Vine Abider]

6 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

You, I, and @AdHoc have had lively discussions about this maturing age in the kingdom. I will not rehash this concept for or against it because I am not convinced. It all boils down to our exegesis, I suppose.

I have never heard that view taught as fundamental anywhere in the churches I have attended or in any commentaries I have consulted. Then again, most pastors avoid the Books of Daniel, Revelation, and Prophecy because of their divisiveness.  

Moreover, I have found nothing indicating such a view by the Anti-Nicene fathers to the reformation. Perhaps someone can direct me to who and when this unorthodox view was proposed.

I am always open to changing my view, but thus far, lacking any historical exegesis before the reformation (even today), I consider it potentially reformed theology.

I know @AdHoc answered you regarding the teaching, but you also asked who were proponents of the concept of the kingdom as a "maturing age."  To my understanding, many of these ones were either in, had had some influence, from the Plymouth Brethren in the 1800s. These included DM Panton, GH Pember, GH Lang and Robert Govett (who was greatly promoted by Spurgeon), and later Watchman Nee and TA Sparks.  (BTW - I think I remember reading from one of these authors, that he found evidence that some early church fathers saw some of this too, but my recollection is foggy.  @AdHoc may know specifically who I'm referring to . . .)

And I believe all in this group of brothers also saw a partial rapture in scripture - that is, some Christians being caught away before others. (first fruits ripening before the harvest)

I agree that the idea of maturing in life is a somewhat foreign idea to much of Christendom today, and the adherents to this idea are in the small minority.  Many seem to believe it's a "one reward fits all" once one is regenerated, but I see this as quite contrary to scripture.  Therefore, it's regarded as, "I have my 'ticket to heaven' so I'm fine" sort of mentality.  But scripture is replete with accountability for what we've been given and letting the Lord's life grow in us.  If we are not at least "faithful in a few" things, I suspect there will be consequences in the next age, and this lack of growth may need to attended to in that coming period. 

 

 

[Marathoner]

3 hours ago, AdHoc said:

He thinks things are for FREE

I have isolated this last statement in your excellent post because it exposes rotten timbers which serve as the support system for bridges that will collapse catastrophically. I believe this ties into the OP and the resident theme because we do, in fact, have an active role to play in that work which the Lord is faithful to complete. Our faith is not a passive affair; however, to clear up any possible confusion, I am not obliquely referring to religious observances, rituals, nor perceived perfection on our part. Hardly, because such things are enterprises which this flesh may cling to eagerly. 

I refer to following the will and purpose of the Lord. If we were able to be perfect, then we wouldn't have any need for our Teacher to teach us His ways. If all we needed was ritual observance then we would have no need for anything else, would we? Ah, but if we listen to the voice of the Lord and pay heed to what He says, then all will be well with us. That's a paraphrase of Jeremiah 7:23 and is indicative of your sound assertion that God is immutable, and His counsel never changes. It truly is as simple as listening to His voice and obeying Him.  

I started on this post earlier but set it aside since I had some matters that required my immediate attention. Having returned, I note our brother @Vine Abider's post above and to be honest, it never occurred to me that the opportunity to mature lasts beyond our sojourn on this earth in this body of corruption. The process of maturation started in earnest after I had lost everything except for the life in this body, when I finally understood what the Lord requires of me:

He requires everything. Knowing this --- when I was all but dead --- I said to the Lord, "I have destroyed this life, so I return it to Your hand, Lord." This was what the Lord required of me from the beginning. It took losing all of my possessions, money, family and friends, health, and that which had opened doors in this world in the past --- my ability to speak persuasively --- to finally arrive at the place where I was ready to mature. 

What did the Lord declare? My offering was acceptable in His sight, and so He proceeded to instruct me what to expect: He would speak, and I would hear His voice; He would speak, and I would do as He bid me to do. He would always be with me as He was at that moment; and then, when He was finished teaching me how to speak again and was pleased, He poured His Spirit upon me. Maturation continues onward for truly, I never stop learning about His ways. He is a willing and faithful Teacher. 

Edited December 17, 2024 by Marathoner
typos

[AdHoc]

13 minutes ago, Marathoner said:

I have isolated this last statement in your excellent post because it exposes rotten timbers which serve as the support system for bridges that will collapse catastrophically. I believe this ties into the OP and the resident theme because we do, in fact, have an active role to play in that work which the Lord is faithful to complete. Our faith is not a passive affair; however, to clear up any possible confusion, I am not obliquely referring to religious observances, rituals, nor perceived perfection on our part. Hardly, because such things are enterprises which this flesh may cling to eagerly. 

I refer to following the will and purpose of the Lord. If we were able to be perfect, then we wouldn't have any need for our Teacher to teach us His ways. If all we needed was ritual observance then we would have no need for anything else, would we? Ah, but if we listen to the voice of the Lord and pay heed to what He says, then all will be well with us. That's a paraphrase of Jeremiah 7:23 and is indicative of your sound assertion that God is immutable, and His counsel never changes. It truly is as simple as listening to His voice and obeying Him.  

I started on this post earlier but set it aside since I had some matters that required my immediate attention. Having returned, I note our brother @Vine Abider's post above and to be honest, it never occurred to me that the opportunity to mature lasts beyond our sojourn on this earth in this body of corruption. The process of maturation started in earnest after I had lost everything except for the life in this body, when I finally understood what the Lord requires of me:

He requires everything. Knowing this --- when I was all but dead --- I said to the Lord, "I have destroyed this life, so I return it to Your hand, Lord." This what was what the Lord required of me from the beginning. It took losing all of my possessions, money, family and friends, health, and that which had opened doors in this world in the past --- my ability to speak persuasively --- to finally arrive at the place where I was ready to mature. 

What did the Lord declare? My offering was acceptable in His sight, and so He proceeded to instruct me what to expect: He would speak, and I would hear His voice; He would speak, and I would do as He bid me to do. He would always be with me as He was at that moment; and then, when He was finished teaching me how to speak again and was pleased, He poured His Spirit upon me. Maturation continues onward for truly, I never stop learning about His ways. He is a willing and faithful Teacher. 

I'm glad you isolated that verse. It gives me an opportunity to answer it with focus. I will answer it from three angles.

1. First - the pure word of God. Ten Virgins went forth to meet the Bridegroom. They are identical in six to seven points. They are all virgins, they have the same goal, they enter their journey looking for the coming of the Lord, they have burning Lamps, they all slept because the Bridegroom delayed, they all awoke together at the call, they were all still intent on meeting the Bridegroom and all ten belong to a quest for the Kingdom of Heaven. They differ in only one point. Five thought that falling asleep with no oil in their VESSELS (not Lamps) was easily compensated after resurrection FOR FREE.

There is not a single ground to make the Virgins different except in attitude. Proverbs tells us that the spirit of man is the Lamp of the Lord. All ten Virgins ad burning lamps. The issue was not the lamps but the supply for the future wedding feast. The foolish Virgins are sent to BUY. While the oil in the Lamps was certainly free, the extra oil in the VESSELS had to be BOUGHT. But though a price was paid by the foolish Virgins, they are still not allowed into the wedding feast.

It is not the point to explain the word "know" in verse 12 but it does not mean that our Lord Jesus did not have intellectual knowledge of them. Furthermore, no sin is recorded. Unlike the wedding feast of Mathew 22 and Revelation 19, the garment is not an issue. These Virgins are refused entry the second time for no apparent reason. EXCEPT if the Kingdom/Wedding Feast is a REWARD for being "known" (oida - Gk.). The sorry truth of the whole parable is that to ENTER the Kingdom / Wedding Feast one must have had intimate knowledge of Jesus and in turn He wold have been able to teach them that THERE IS A PRICE TO PAY TO ENTER THE KINGDOM. What ever meaning one likes to draw from the parable, the word "BUY" remains the same. You pay a price.

2. Second - current doctrine that salvation is a PLACE - Heaven. If a new Christian is taught that he must believe in Jesus and will go to heaven, there is nothing more to do than believe. But if the new convert s taught that "destruction" or "perdition" is a STATE of "THEIR worms that will not die and THEIR fire that will not be quenched" then the PLACE of perdition is INSIDE man. And the REWARD for being faithful, according to Matthew 25 is to enter THE JOY of te Lord then heaven remains a place for God's Throne and the EARTH GETS GOD RULE by men who are full of JOY.

But how was this JOY attained to? Matthew 25 is clear. You, being a SERVANT, are give a JOB to do with EQUIPMENT from the Lord - Talents. The SERVANT (one who serves - WORK) who did not DO (work) was not robbed of his status of SERVANT, but cast out of the KINGDOM. Of heaven NOTHING is said. And of a FREE RIDE danger is attached.

3. Third - the Nicolaitan System. Have you ever found, among Christian literature, a scholarly work on this phenomena. NO? I'll tell you why. Nearly everybody is involved. Nicolaitan is a compound word meaning "Victor over the common man". When Israel demanded a king they gave the following reason; "we want to be like the Nations and have ONE to judge us all" (1st Sam.8). God's design for the earth was "let THEM have dominion". His design for Israel was that His Word would be studied by all and the whole village would decide. And His design for the Church was "when you are all gathered together" (1st Cor.5). In all cases the "GATHERING was to study the Word and apply it justly if  a sinner rose up". This way, God would remain KING through His Word.

Any deviation from the "Ekklesia" opened the door for corruption. But already in Ephesus in about 95 AD men who proposed themselves more capable that God's people have taken "thrones" over the Laity. And the laity love it. But God hates it. Men, knowingly and unknowingly will not teach the full gospel BECAUSE THEY LIVE OFF THE LAITY. Anything unpleasant is simply ignored. But the main theme of the New Testament is the Kingdom and the PRICE for the Kingdom is 1. give away your goods and 2. deny your soul-life and put your flesh on the YOUR cross. Judge if this a main them in your Assembly;

24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. 26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? 27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. 28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Matt.16:24–28.

Do you know what losing your "soul-life" entails? Ask our Lord Who sweated blood! Let's have a vote. Count how many times this last year your teacher, or any big TV preacher taught this. He won't because his livelihood and/or fame would diminish rapidly.

1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, ... 3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you ... (2nd Pet.2:1–3).

Salvation from Perdition, Eternal Life and resurrection are FREE. The KINGDOM can be lost. the PRICE is your life.

[Marilyn C]

22 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

So born-again backsliders are still children of God, since they are produced from His life coming into them and regenerating them as His children.  His life will be victorious.

This brings in the question of when.  My view is that if we don't cooperate with Him in this life, in at least "a few things" (see Matt 25:14-28), we will not grow well and will not be rewarded in the kingdom.  I suspect that the maturing will then have to happen during that time, over the thousand year period.

Hi VA,

Jesus is speaking to the children of Israel whom He came to when on earth. He is reminding them of the rulership of heaven through Israel, in the millennium. (Rom. 15: 8)

We are not in the millennium on earth.

[Marilyn C]

5 hours ago, AdHoc said:

First, I respect your view and desire to have proof of some historical source. The case of Jesus versus the Pharisees shows how historical precedent is desired by men.

I do not say this lightly, for you are seeking and that is what the Lord requires. But this Forum I understood was for OUR opinions. And the documentation was to be scripture. I think you will agree that that's what I held to. It doesn't make me correct, but I presented my arguments from scripture alone.

You will make a decision, which is what the Lord wants. It will be based on criteria that you find good. Here is a short summary of what I presented to you.
1. God had a plan and it has not, and will not, change. His councils are immutable
2. The coming Kingdom is a reward
3. The coming Kingdom will be administered by men who are mature, righteous and who are intimate friends of Christ
4. Concerning the coming Kingdom of Christ, Christ Himself said it was a harvest
5. A Harvest has different gatherings
6. A Harvest has different results - some 100, some 60, some zero fruit
7. John 15 says that the Father - the Farmer, will be highly angry at zero return
8. 1st Corinthians 3 says that much depends on your way of building - YOUR BUILDING

This is what the Bible says and what I say. Israel is our pattern. What happened to them will happen to us. 2 of 600,000 soldiers made it into the goal. Moses didn't. God killed 24,000 of His people for fornicating with a strange nation. He also wiped out the whole world for toying with how man is "generated". He is a fearsome God. He is also a merciful God, but the cost of His mercy was enormous. He is known for doing what He said He will. All I did was to point you to what He said - not what Luther or Darby said. But the decision is yours.

Don't trust the modern Christian. He's got oil in his Lamp - but not in his VESSEL. He thinks things are for FREE

Hi Ad Hoc,

You are confusing what the Lord said to Israel concerning their inheritance and what the Lord has said to His Body when He ascended to the Father. 

1. God`s plan for the members of the Body is to be made like Christ. (Rom. 8: 29) We are to rule from His own throne in the third heaven. 

2. God`s plan for Israel as a nation is to rule the nations of the world righteously, in the millennium.

3. The harvests are for Israel and the nations, NOT the Body of Christ. 

[Marilyn C]

41 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

I'm glad you isolated that verse. It gives me an opportunity to answer it with focus. I will answer it from three angles.

1. First - the pure word of God. Ten Virgins went forth to meet the Bridegroom. They are identical in six to seven points. They are all virgins, they have the same goal, they enter their journey looking for the coming of the Lord, they have burning Lamps, they all slept because the Bridegroom delayed, they all awoke together at the call, they were all still intent on meeting the Bridegroom and all ten belong to a quest for the Kingdom of Heaven. They differ in only one point. Five thought that falling asleep with no oil in their VESSELS (not Lamps) was easily compensated after resurrection FOR FREE.

There is not a single ground to make the Virgins different except in attitude. Proverbs tells us that the spirit of man is the Lamp of the Lord. All ten Virgins ad burning lamps. The issue was not the lamps but the supply for the future wedding feast. The foolish Virgins are sent to BUY. While the oil in the Lamps was certainly free, the extra oil in the VESSELS had to be BOUGHT. But though a price was paid by the foolish Virgins, they are still not allowed into the wedding feast.

It is not the point to explain the word "know" in verse 12 but it does not mean that our Lord Jesus did not have intellectual knowledge of them. Furthermore, no sin is recorded. Unlike the wedding feast of Mathew 22 and Revelation 19, the garment is not an issue. These Virgins are refused entry the second time for no apparent reason. EXCEPT if the Kingdom/Wedding Feast is a REWARD for being "known" (oida - Gk.). The sorry truth of the whole parable is that to ENTER the Kingdom / Wedding Feast one must have had intimate knowledge of Jesus and in turn He wold have been able to teach them that THERE IS A PRICE TO PAY TO ENTER THE KINGDOM. What ever meaning one likes to draw from the parable, the word "BUY" remains the same. You pay a price.

2. Second - current doctrine that salvation is a PLACE - Heaven. If a new Christian is taught that he must believe in Jesus and will go to heaven, there is nothing more to do than believe. But if the new convert s taught that "destruction" or "perdition" is a STATE of "THEIR worms that will not die and THEIR fire that will not be quenched" then the PLACE of perdition is INSIDE man. And the REWARD for being faithful, according to Matthew 25 is to enter THE JOY of te Lord then heaven remains a place for God's Throne and the EARTH GETS GOD RULE by men who are full of JOY.

But how was this JOY attained to? Matthew 25 is clear. You, being a SERVANT, are give a JOB to do with EQUIPMENT from the Lord - Talents. The SERVANT (one who serves - WORK) who did not DO (work) was not robbed of his status of SERVANT, but cast out of the KINGDOM. Of heaven NOTHING is said. And of a FREE RIDE danger is attached.

3. Third - the Nicolaitan System. Have you ever found, among Christian literature, a scholarly work on this phenomena. NO? I'll tell you why. Nearly everybody is involved. Nicolaitan is a compound word meaning "Victor over the common man". When Israel demanded a king they gave the following reason; "we want to be like the Nations and have ONE to judge us all" (1st Sam.8). God's design for the earth was "let THEM have dominion". His design for Israel was that His Word would be studied by all and the whole village would decide. And His design for the Church was "when you are all gathered together" (1st Cor.5). In all cases the "GATHERING was to study the Word and apply it justly if  a sinner rose up". This way, God would remain KING through His Word.

Any deviation from the "Ekklesia" opened the door for corruption. But already in Ephesus in about 95 AD men who proposed themselves more capable that God's people have taken "thrones" over the Laity. And the laity love it. But God hates it. Men, knowingly and unknowingly will not teach the full gospel BECAUSE THEY LIVE OFF THE LAITY. Anything unpleasant is simply ignored. But the main theme of the New Testament is the Kingdom and the PRICE for the Kingdom is 1. give away your goods and 2. deny your soul-life and put your flesh on the YOUR cross. Judge if this a main them in your Assembly;

24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. 26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? 27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. 28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Matt.16:24–28.

Do you know what losing your "soul-life" entails? Ask our Lord Who sweated blood! Let's have a vote. Count how many times this last year your teacher, or any big TV preacher taught this. He won't because his livelihood and/or fame would diminish rapidly.

1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, ... 3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you ... (2nd Pet.2:1–3).

Salvation from Perdition, Eternal Life and resurrection are FREE. The KINGDOM can be lost. the PRICE is your life.

Again, you confuse what the Lord said to the Children of Israel while He was on earth, and what the Lord says to His Body when He ascended to the Father. 

The kingdom/rule for Israel as a nation is in the millennium. It is the kingdom rule of the Lord through Israel.

The rule of Christ on His own throne with His Body is over ALL of God`s great kingdom. 

The word `kingdom` is used for many different aspects of God`s great kingdom/rule.

 

A Kingdom is the dominion, rule and reign of the King.

 

In God`s Word there are many kingdoms mentioned –

 

-         The Kingdom of God.

-         The Kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ.

-         The Kingdom of Heaven.

-         The Kingdom of Israel.

-         The Kingdoms of this world.

-         The Kingdom of Darkness.

 

All these Kingdoms come under the Kingdom of God. He made different realms and different rulership positions. However, those ruling, will be judged on how they ruled.

 

Although everything was created good, rebellion came in. Over time as this rebellion is addressed then all rule, authority and power will come under God and His rulership through those He chooses.

 

[Marathoner]

55 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Second - current doctrine that salvation is a PLACE - Heaven.

When I encountered this teaching some time after the Lord called me, it struck me as odd. It's part of the "hell insurance" sales pitch. It's still as strange as it's ever been. 

57 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Third - the Nicolaitan System.

Your understanding of that particular subject is identical to the brother who introduced me to the scriptures. What did he emphasize? The Body of Christ. 
 

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

But the main theme of the New Testament is the Kingdom and the PRICE for the Kingdom is 1. give away your goods and 2. deny your soul-life and put your flesh on the YOUR cross.

This is also what the same brother taught me. It's worth noting that churches in the area considered him a nutcase for preaching such things. He continues to teach the same to this day. 

I don't belong to nor frequent any churches, brother. I fellowship with brethren in the course of carrying out my calling in Christ which sees me working at a temporary housing shelter for the homeless. I walked in their shoes for many years, so the Lord equipped me to serve them as a counselor. 

[Dennis1209]

6 hours ago, AdHoc said:

First, I respect your view and desire to have proof of some historical source. The case of Jesus versus the Pharisees shows how historical precedent is desired by men.

I do not say this lightly, for you are seeking and that is what the Lord requires. But this Forum I understood was for OUR opinions. And the documentation was to be scripture. I think you will agree that that's what I held to. It doesn't make me correct, but I presented my arguments from scripture alone.

You will make a decision, which is what the Lord wants. It will be based on criteria that you find good. Here is a short summary of what I presented to you.
1. God had a plan and it has not, and will not, change. His councils are immutable
2. The coming Kingdom is a reward
3. The coming Kingdom will be administered by men who are mature, righteous and who are intimate friends of Christ
4. Concerning the coming Kingdom of Christ, Christ Himself said it was a harvest
5. A Harvest has different gatherings
6. A Harvest has different results - some 100, some 60, some zero fruit
7. John 15 says that the Father - the Farmer, will be highly angry at zero return
8. 1st Corinthians 3 says that much depends on your way of building - YOUR BUILDING

This is what the Bible says and what I say. Israel is our pattern. What happened to them will happen to us. 2 of 600,000 soldiers made it into the goal. Moses didn't. God killed 24,000 of His people for fornicating with a strange nation. He also wiped out the whole world for toying with how man is "generated". He is a fearsome God. He is also a merciful God, but the cost of His mercy was enormous. He is known for doing what He said He will. All I did was to point you to what He said - not what Luther or Darby said. But the decision is yours.

Don't trust the modern Christian. He's got oil in his Lamp - but not in his VESSEL. He thinks things are for FREE

You should know I am not being condescending, arguing, or even implying your exegesis is off; that is not how I roll. I believe I stated I was unsure of that view and not convinced. I present my views from my studies, not trying to convince anyone I am correct or to change minds, but to have a discussion. I am at the bottom rung of a know-it-all.

Though sometimes difficult, I try not to fit scripture to any preconceived notions I have, trying to let scripture speak for itself, comparing scripture with scripture in context. I agree with many of the views you have presented.

The ones I disagree with, are unsure of or have never heard of before, I like to get the thoughts of some of the brightest theological minds. In the case of Christians being beaten with few or many stripes, exclusion from the Kingdom, being strict as a reward for mature Christians, etc., I still have questions.

The main point I am questioning is, who else (theologians and scholars of any Christian era) holds that interpretation, and when and where did it develop? In my search thus far, I have not found any who hold this view of punishment, growth, and maturity. After all, that is what stripes are for: physical punishment. That also seems to imply that those believers have not received their glorified bodies and, thus, have not been Raptured (I know, partial Rapture).

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Yes, I know. The saints will have multiple resurrections, and all of them fit under the first resurrection. But there will be only one bodily resurrection for the condemned at the Great White Throne judgment—no mention of maturity levels above.

As I have stated before, my conviction is that all born-again believers, those with faith the size of a mustard seed, baby immature Christians, those under the age of accountability, the church-age saints asleep, and those in the womb will all be caught up to meet the Lord in the air.

My interpretation of appearing before the Bema Seat of Christ is contrary to condemnation, punishment, or level of maturity. The loss of any rewards burned up is that they were selfish and for the individual's glory, or not for the Kingdom of God and His glory.

I grapple with this: If the born-again believer is excluded from entering the millennial reign of Christ because he or she is not mature enough. When and where will they spend that time, and where will the few or many stripes be administered in open shame?

Are we talking about outside the geographical boundary of the Kingdom, the one the nations are required to visit annually, or Heaven?

[Dennis1209]

5 hours ago, Vine Abider said:

I know @AdHoc answered you regarding the teaching, but you also asked who were proponents of the concept of the kingdom as a "maturing age."  To my understanding, many of these ones were either in, had had some influence, from the Plymouth Brethren in the 1800s. These included DM Panton, GH Pember, GH Lang and Robert Govett (who was greatly promoted by Spurgeon), and later Watchman Nee and TA Sparks.  (BTW - I think I remember reading from one of these authors, that he found evidence that some early church fathers saw some of this too, but my recollection is foggy.  @AdHoc may know specifically who I'm referring to . . .)

And I believe all in this group of brothers also saw a partial rapture in scripture - that is, some Christians being caught away before others. (first fruits ripening before the harvest)

I agree that the idea of maturing in life is a somewhat foreign idea to much of Christendom today, and the adherents to this idea are in the small minority.  Many seem to believe it's a "one reward fits all" once one is regenerated, but I see this as quite contrary to scripture.  Therefore, it's regarded as, "I have my 'ticket to heaven' so I'm fine" sort of mentality.  But scripture is replete with accountability for what we've been given and letting the Lord's life grow in us.  If we are not at least "faithful in a few" things, I suspect there will be consequences in the next age, and this lack of growth may need to attended to in that coming period. 

 

 

Thanks that is exactly what I was looking for. I have the works of Charles Spurgeon and G.H. Pember in my LOGOS digital library, but not Govett, Lang, and Panton. You are correct with Govett & Spurgeon, Lang & Pember.

In my resources of Spurgeon and Pember, I have yet to run across mentions of Govett, Lang, and Panton. Probably because I was not looking for them, that is the information I wanted to dig deeper into from these peer-respected scholars.

I read Wikipedia (not the best source) information on the three (Lang, Govett, and Panton), all 17th and early 18th century scholars. Their views conform to what you and @AdHoc have stated. I will take a serious look at their commentary and consider it.

From the little I have researched so far, according to Wikipedia, their original views, denominations, and teachings have changed. Not having any confidence in Wikipedia theology, I went to order the works of Govett first to add to my library and study. I needed a defibrillator to restart my heart, one to seven thousand dollars for some volumes.

Anyway, I have Spurgeon and Pember to run a search to mention them and partial Raptures.

I am still interested in whether any of the Anti-Nicene fathers held this view or if this is reformed theology. I hold Spurgeon and Pember in high regard and cannot say I have ever read anything from Govett, Land, or Panton.

Again, thanks a lot; I now have a path in studying this subject. Who knows, my hermeneutics may change; it has happened before.