Birth Pangs & First Fruits

[WilliamL]

On 1/2/2025 at 4:01 PM, AdHoc said:

If I find that the Canon established for nearly 1700 years and I read Daniel 4:34-35, in which Jehovah makes a claim that He is sovereign on earth and in the affairs of men, I am faced with three choices:
1. Jehovah is a liar and men have power to decide the Canon
2. Jehovah is truthful but left men to develop their own Bible
3. Jehovah is truthful and He has exercised His power to have the record we have

Which "the Canon"? The one you use, of course!

Ah, the arrogance of the Western Catholic tradition.

" Various biblical canons have developed through debate and agreement on the part of the religious authorities of their respective faiths and denominations. Some books, such as the Jewish–Christian gospels, have been excluded from various canons altogether, but many disputed books are considered to be biblical apocrypha or deuterocanonical by many, while some denominations may consider them fully canonical. Differences exist between the Hebrew Bible and Christian biblical canons, although the majority of manuscripts are shared in common. "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_canon

If one scrolls down on that webpage, one can see the great number of biblical canons accepted by the different Church traditions and leaders.

[AdHoc]

5 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Which "the Canon"? The one you use, of course!

Ah, the arrogance of the Western Catholic tradition.

" Various biblical canons have developed through debate and agreement on the part of the religious authorities of their respective faiths and denominations. Some books, such as the Jewish–Christian gospels, have been excluded from various canons altogether, but many disputed books are considered to be biblical apocrypha or deuterocanonical by many, while some denominations may consider them fully canonical. Differences exist between the Hebrew Bible and Christian biblical canons, although the majority of manuscripts are shared in common. "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_canon

If one scrolls down on that webpage, one can see the great number of biblical canons accepted by the different Church traditions and leaders.

My three questions left no room for riding the fence. You have decided on the first two which discount Daniel 4. Nevertheless, I respect your decision and admit that you belong to the vast majority (who believe that God is impotent in the affairs of men).

By your own logic, nobody has the Words of God. And if the Words of God are not to be had, then the same criteria for "arrogance" must be applied to the rest.

[WilliamL]

On 1/7/2025 at 5:53 PM, AdHoc said:

My three questions left no room for riding the fence. You have decided on the first two which discount Daniel 4.

Not true at all. Again, you are making a PRESUMPTION that only the Roman Church had the authority to "have power to decide the Canon," as you put it. So it is on you to prove that from the Scriptures.

I will add that in the same century, the 4th, that the Roman Church decided on their canon, it had already both become the official state church of the Roman Empire, and had begun condemning heretics to death on its own authority. Do you believe that God gave the RC that power too?

On 1/7/2025 at 5:53 PM, AdHoc said:

I respect your decision and admit that you belong to the vast majority (who believe that God is impotent in the affairs of men).

Pure slander.

On 1/7/2025 at 5:53 PM, AdHoc said:

By your own logic, nobody has the Words of God.

Apparently you believe that God has lost the ability to speak? If so, please prove that by the Scriptures.

[AdHoc]

10 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Not true at all. Again, you are making a PRESUMPTION that only the Roman Church had the authority to "have power to decide the Canon," as you put it. So it is on you to prove that from the Scriptures.

I will add that in the same century, the 4th, that the Roman Church decided on their canon, it had already both become the official state church of the Roman Empire, and had begun condemning heretics to death on its own authority. Do you believe that God gave the RC that power too?

Pure slander.

Apparently you believe that God has lost the ability to speak? If so, please prove that by the Scriptures.

In each section you attribute something not even mentioned and then argue the non-existent point. Who said anything about the "Roman Church having authority"? My posting DENIED the power of men to resist God in what ever He set His mind to do.

I'll let my previous posting stand unanswered. You have aligned yourself with the answer to questions 1 & 2.

You have yet to venture who has, and who established, God's genuine Word on earth. I maintain that God can, if He wants, use a donkey for His Words. Men are powerless until God creates the circumstances and inspiration. You  judge the Western Catholics "arrogant". By what special insight do you judge the Eastern Catholic NOT arrogant?

I propose that in good Christian attitude we each set forth our understanding of how men came by the Bible and whether God has withheld, or been unable to transmit, crucial scripture. I'll start;

The Jews preserved certain historical writings. Since Moses lived over 400 years later than Abraham his record is either inspired - or fairy tales. Some 300 years before Christ, either by divine arrangement, or some fluke, the Septuagint came into being. This Greek record exposed the manipulations of the Masoretic text which went on until about 700 AD. The Bible that was locked away for a thousand years was the Catholic Bible. The Bible that produced the fruit of the Reformation is the one we have today. Though used by the Brethren to recover the truths of the Second Coming, the critical Nestle-Aland texts were ever in question and they overturn no great truth. The good student of scripture studies all evidence.

I believe that God had His way. Which way ... I cannot prove. That is the strength of faith. It confirms the UNSEEN (Heb.11:1). My faith says that God has His Word out there and even in the order he wanted it. My choice is in line wit the Puritans but I am keenly aware that these men were as fallen as us all. God has His Word out there. There is no power out there which can resist Him. I choose the protestant Bible as we know it, and I cannot prove anything. My choice s based on what God said about himself to a Jewish prophet, which I cannot prove. My 42 years of studying the Bible has given me confidence that this grand Book is the product of God's mind and power among willing men .... and a donkey.

[WilliamL]

On 1/10/2025 at 3:34 PM, AdHoc said:

You have yet to venture who has, and who established, God's genuine Word on earth.

This statement is premised upon the presumption that God has a one-size-fits-all "genuine Word" suitable for everyone. But the Word says no such thing.

Rather, God's teachings are provided according to the general principle of "He that is able to receive it, let him receive it." Matt. 19:12 and, "“He who has ears to hear, let him hear!” Matt. 13:9

In other words, some of the Lord's Word is not suitable for all ears, but only for select ears. Therefore, the presumption that the Lord has only one single canon of written scripture is never what the Lord Himself taught! (If you can provide "God's genuine Word" to the contrary, please do so.)

[AdHoc]

1 hour ago, WilliamL said:

This statement is premised upon the presumption that God has a one-size-fits-all "genuine Word" suitable for everyone. But the Word says no such thing.

Rather, God's teachings are provided according to the general principle of "He that is able to receive it, let him receive it." Matt. 19:12 and, "“He who has ears to hear, let him hear!” Matt. 13:9

In other words, some of the Lord's Word is not suitable for all ears, but only for select ears. Therefore, the presumption that the Lord has only one single canon of written scripture is never what the Lord Himself taught! (If you can provide "God's genuine Word" to the contrary, please do so.)

On the contrary. Your two proffered verses imply the full Word is there but will not be received by all. This is most evident in Matthew 13 where the Lord gave four parables before the crowd but spoke in parables so that even those with ears wold not understand.

But I'll concede this point because if all was set forth as you request there would be no room for faith. I believe the words of Daniel 4 that God rules the affairs of man and no-one can stay His hand. I believe ("arrogantly" if you like - there is no limit to the fallenness of man) that the Protestant literal version of the Bible is he whole Word of God. I'm aware of the difficulties with translating and so make no claim that man's translation is perfect. I do have access to critical versions and reference works and judge that the said Bible, as it is now presented, will occupy me for at least the Millennium, but more likely eternity future.

I also respect your view but don't share it it in any way.

[WilliamL]

On 1/13/2025 at 4:42 PM, AdHoc said:

I also respect your view but don't share it it in any way.

Likewise.

We agree that the 66 books are inspired. We don't agree on whether other books were also inspired.