Christmas

[Tristen]

1 hour ago, Luther said:

"My thinking is more along the lines of the following passage:Romans 14:5-10"

Sure. Just give you my deepest thoughts on the subject.

I'm not sure what you mean here. I thought the passage I posted was directly relevant to the topic we are discussing.

 

1 hour ago, Luther said:

"I have never known anyone to worship a nativity scene. I therefore don't consider this to be a cogent concern."

It's the fact that there is an image that is representing God. I'm sure God is not ok with some cheap plastic figure from Walmart to be a representation of His Almighty Glory. Sorry TOTALLY disagree. Our God is a jealous God. 

The edict in Exodus 20 is not against any generation of "an image that is representing God", but rather against "an image" intended to be the focus of worship (i.e. to bow before or serve - verse 5).

To my knowledge, no-one is using a nativity that way.

You say you "TOTALLY disagree" (you don't have to be "sorry" - we are permitted to "disagree"). Nevertheless, Romans 14 suggests that you may be more concerned with some choosing a day to celebrate Christ, than God is.

 

1 hour ago, Luther said:

"I think your pejorative use of "Catholic Church" here is anachronistic."

CHRIST-MASS.

The earliest record of Christians celebrating Christ's birth on December 25th is from the "Commentary on Daneil" by Hippolytus of Rome (202AD). He did not use the term "CHRIST-MASS". Instead, he referred to the festival as celebrating "the first advent of our Lord in the flesh".

 

1 hour ago, Luther said:

"I don't think it's fair to characterize Christmas as "unBiblical" - as though God would be generally displeased."

Here's the caveat: God remembers the very first December 25th when the pagan  winter celebration of NIMROD began

Can you show me where I can find the primary source of this information? I'm not trying to be clever or obtuse - I have been variously informed that Horus and Tammuz and Mithras and a handful of other ancient deities were also born on December 25th. However, I have been unable to track down the source of any such claim in the original mythologies.

Even if the claim is true, "Nimrod" does not own the date in perpetuity. Logic permits that a person can be born on December 25 - despite the possibility of that date previously hosting the birth of another.

 

1 hour ago, Luther said:

A witch down the road from you is celebrating the true meaning of the " Christmas tree"

Likewise, I could only track the "Christmas tree" tradition to 14th century Europe - where Christian communities would, on Christmas Eve, present Bible-based plays (Old Testament themed) under a large tree decorated with fruit.

It is true that there is an older pagan tradition of bringing cutoffs from evergreen trees indoors because of some alleged magical protection. But that is not a "Christmas tree". And I could not find any primary evidential link between the two traditions.

 

2 hours ago, Luther said:

and the " yule log", on the same day as you

I had never heard of a "yule log" before I started looking into these claims.

I am not denying the possibility that some winter pagan practices have been added to the Christian traditions over time. But that does not mean the Christian traditions themselves (apart from the additions) are pagan-inspired.

 

2 hours ago, Luther said:

"there is a degree of social recognition earned by Christmas."

Yes you're right. And the farthest thing from their minds, especially in our day, is the "religious aspect". It's all about what's under that Nimrod tree.

 

It's " a special time of the year" for overeating, unfettered alcohol consumption, and opening your gifts while down the street from you that family that just became homeless could of used a couple bucks that you wouldn't have missed from your " Christmas budget". Yeah, we don't want to lose the significance of that, do we. 

I am in no way contesting that the Christmas tradition has become progressively corrupted by worldly influences.

But maybe that means we need to better stand our ground - to protect Christian traditions and maintain Christian influences in society- rather than surrendering them to the world.

 

2 hours ago, Luther said:

Sorry, do what you please

Yes - that was really the point of the Romans 14 passage. 

If you prefer to not celebrate Christmas, then you have no judgement from me. I just think it's an interesting topic to discuss - especially the often-misinformed attempt to link Christian ideas and traditions to paganism.

 

2 hours ago, Luther said:

We're just living in a time where the world is making Christmas time a great self-indulgent mockery of any traditional view I could have been ok with like 50 years ago. It's all trashy, especially the music oh, the music.

Yep.

Nevertheless, there remains in "Christmas", the remnant of an opportunity to guide people's attention towards Christ - who would usually have no time for such consideration.

 

[Dennis1209]

On 12/26/2024 at 10:41 AM, Luther said:

I suggest we move the " celebration" of the birth of Jesus in it's more accurate time frame, about mid October, and let the pagan celebration remain Dec. 25th. That way there won't be this "moral struggle" every year with " keeping Christ in Christmas". 

For several reasons, Jesus was not born in the winter, and it is not my focus. What day on the calendar could be chosen that is not associated with something Pagan? In addition, by name, what day of the week or month of the year is not associated with paganism, gods, or demigods?

There can be no doubt about it: December 25 was once a pagan holiday, the birthday of the Sun god, Sol Invictus, from his winter nap—the shortest winter day that starts the gradual return of longer days, the winter solstice. So let’s celebrate the end of winter and welcome the power of the god-like sun.

In Praise of Pagan Christmas – Adventist Today

Christianity took it over; I do not view the following as controversial:

There are many messages and questions to ask about Christ’s transfiguration. Why did Jesus and his disciples leave Caesarea-Philippi, home of the god Pan, and travel a long way North in the wilderness, to the middle of nowhere, to Mt. Hermon? I would document it all, but it would be too lengthy.

Psalm 23:4 (KJV) Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

The valley of the Shadow of Death is a place, namely the Bashan area, and particularly Mt. Hermon, with a long evil history. This history is recorded in the Bible and many non-Biblical texts and pseudepigrapha. There is no question about what the inhabitants believed about the area (Watchers-Nephilim).

Matthew 16:18 (KJV) And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Jesus was openly mocking the kingdom of darkness, poking them in the eye. Gates are defensive structures, and Jesus and Christianity are offensive. It is believed by many that Jesus’s transfiguration took place at a cave at the base of Mt. Hermon, where the 200 Watchers were thought to have descended. Historically, this cave was supposed to be a gate to Hell, and it had a Pagan temple there; its ruins are still there today.

It is recorded that unsuccessful attempts were made to reach the bottom of this cave with rope and weights. Since then, earthquakes have all but filled it in.  

Colossians 2:15 (KJV) And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Every day of the week and every month of the year named and dedicated to the pantheon of gods, Jesus triumphs over them, putting them to open shame and defeat, and they know it.

Philippians 2:10 (KJV) That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

 

[Luther]

10 hours ago, Tristen said:

I'm not sure what you mean here. I thought the passage I posted was directly relevant to the topic we are discussing.

 

The edict in Exodus 20 is not against any generation of "an image that is representing God", but rather against "an image" intended to be the focus of worship (i.e. to bow before or serve - verse 5).

To my knowledge, no-one is using a nativity that way.

You say you "TOTALLY disagree" (you don't have to be "sorry" - we are permitted to "disagree"). Nevertheless, Romans 14 suggests that you may be more concerned with some choosing a day to celebrate Christ, than God is.

 

The earliest record of Christians celebrating Christ's birth on December 25th is from the "Commentary on Daneil" by Hippolytus of Rome (202AD). He did not use the term "CHRIST-MASS". Instead, he referred to the festival as celebrating "the first advent of our Lord in the flesh".

 

Can you show me where I can find the primary source of this information? I'm not trying to be clever or obtuse - I have been variously informed that Horus and Tammuz and Mithras and a handful of other ancient deities were also born on December 25th. However, I have been unable to track down the source of any such claim in the original mythologies.

Even if the claim is true, "Nimrod" does not own the date in perpetuity. Logic permits that a person can be born on December 25 - despite the possibility of that date previously hosting the birth of another.

 

Likewise, I could only track the "Christmas tree" tradition to 14th century Europe - where Christian communities would, on Christmas Eve, present Bible-based plays (Old Testament themed) under a large tree decorated with fruit.

It is true that there is an older pagan tradition of bringing cutoffs from evergreen trees indoors because of some alleged magical protection. But that is not a "Christmas tree". And I could not find any primary evidential link between the two traditions.

 

I had never heard of a "yule log" before I started looking into these claims.

I am not denying the possibility that some winter pagan practices have been added to the Christian traditions over time. But that does not mean the Christian traditions themselves (apart from the additions) are pagan-inspired.

 

I am in no way contesting that the Christmas tradition has become progressively corrupted by worldly influences.

But maybe that means we need to better stand our ground - to protect Christian traditions and maintain Christian influences in society- rather than surrendering them to the world.

 

Yes - that was really the point of the Romans 14 passage. 

If you prefer to not celebrate Christmas, then you have no judgement from me. I just think it's an interesting topic to discuss - especially the often-misinformed attempt to link Christian ideas and traditions to paganism.

 

Yep.

Nevertheless, there remains in "Christmas", the remnant of an opportunity to guide people's attention towards Christ - who would usually have no time for such consideration.

 

I am not an expert on the origins of pagan celebrations. I do know that whatever happened, it was on December 25th, the time of the winter solstice. The point is...why. Why be involved with a religious tradition like Christmas that occurs the same day a pagan god is born? It's like " harvest fest ", where "Christians" still feel the need to be part of  Halloween but with a new facade. Oh it's ok now because our intent is righteous....same day the witches celebrate, and they're laughing at you because you are involving yourself with the actual day of the demonic activity. 

 

Jeremiah 10:2-4

Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.

[3]For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.

[4]They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.

Here we have a tree "decked" with ornaments, fastened so the tree remains upright ( tree stands weren't invented yet I guess). So even though I don't know exactly the specifics of this vain pagan celebration , the similarities to the customs of Christmas would make me say " nope, I'm not going to perpetuate a pagan custom in my Godly home".

"Abstain from all appearance of evil", God says. 

 

Creating an image of God is an abomination. Attempting to re-create the perfect Holiness of God through the work of man is sin. For the Christian the sheer thought of making an image or  representation of God into a mass produced piece of plastic should make you cringe at the very least. 

[Luther]

31 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

For several reasons, Jesus was not born in the winter, and it is not my focus. What day on the calendar could be chosen that is not associated with something Pagan? In addition, by name, what day of the week or month of the year is not associated with paganism, gods, or demigods?

There can be no doubt about it: December 25 was once a pagan holiday, the birthday of the Sun god, Sol Invictus, from his winter nap—the shortest winter day that starts the gradual return of longer days, the winter solstice. So let’s celebrate the end of winter and welcome the power of the god-like sun.

In Praise of Pagan Christmas – Adventist Today

Christianity took it over; I do not view the following as controversial:

There are many messages and questions to ask about Christ’s transfiguration. Why did Jesus and his disciples leave Caesarea-Philippi, home of the god Pan, and travel a long way North in the wilderness, to the middle of nowhere, to Mt. Hermon? I would document it all, but it would be too lengthy.

Psalm 23:4 (KJV) Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

The valley of the Shadow of Death is a place, namely the Bashan area, and particularly Mt. Hermon, with a long evil history. This history is recorded in the Bible and many non-Biblical texts and pseudepigrapha. There is no question about what the inhabitants believed about the area (Watchers-Nephilim).

Matthew 16:18 (KJV) And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Jesus was openly mocking the kingdom of darkness, poking them in the eye. Gates are defensive structures, and Jesus and Christianity are offensive. It is believed by many that Jesus’s transfiguration took place at a cave at the base of Mt. Hermon, where the 200 Watchers were thought to have descended. Historically, this cave was supposed to be a gate to Hell, and it had a Pagan temple there; its ruins are still there today.

It is recorded that unsuccessful attempts were made to reach the bottom of this cave with rope and weights. Since then, earthquakes have all but filled it in.  

Colossians 2:15 (KJV) And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Every day of the week and every month of the year named and dedicated to the pantheon of gods, Jesus triumphs over them, putting them to open shame and defeat, and they know it.

Philippians 2:10 (KJV) That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

 

Nice presentation.

John 4:23-24

But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

[24]God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

I don't believe that Christians need to outwardly " celebrate" the spiritual relationship they  have with God. That's why we are set apart or sanctified. 

[Alive]

Pretty sure the winter solstice is on the 21 and 22.

[Luther]

1 minute ago, Alive said:

Pretty sure the winter solstice is on the 21 and 22.

Sure. I think we're all going to have feelings intertwined with our take on Christmas. Most of us were brought up with the celebration. My Mom went all out with decorations, family gatherings and FOOD. I loved that time of year, nothing was better. 

I do not walk around nowadays yelling at everyone " Nimrod tree! Nimrod tree!". My family did their first Christmas basically without me. I was fine with that, no condemnation. 

At this time in my life (59 yrs) I'm feeling the "soul"difference between a 1975 Christmas compared to now. This antichrist society bludgeoned to death any respect and warmth of a tradition that in my eyes will never be the same. That's my emotional take.

IMHO The way this world is going, Christians should be more inclined at Christmas warning others of the coming judgment of the Lord Jesus Christ. 

[Alive]

3 minutes ago, Luther said:

Sure. I think we're all going to have feelings intertwined with our take on Christmas. Most of us were brought up with the celebration. My Mom went all out with decorations, family gatherings and FOOD. I loved that time of year, nothing was better. 

I do not walk around nowadays yelling at everyone " Nimrod tree! Nimrod tree!". My family did their first Christmas basically without me. I was fine with that, no condemnation. 

At this time in my life (59 yrs) I'm feeling the "soul"difference between a 1975 Christmas compared to now. This antichrist society bludgeoned to death any respect and warmth of a tradition that in my eyes will never be the same. That's my emotional take.

IMHO The way this world is going, Christians should be more inclined at Christmas warning others of the coming judgment of the Lord Jesus Christ. 

I was only pointing out the mistake about the date.

No feelings involved.

[Luther]

1 hour ago, Alive said:

I was only pointing out the mistake about the date.

No feelings involved.

Sure No problem. Just a little rambling. 

[Alive]

On this subject, I offer a thought.

No person who is ‘In Christ of the Father’ who remembers the Lord’s Birth on Dec. 25 and any other day, is offering allegience to any false god or pagan religion.

For this reason and others, I think it not profitable to malign others for these choices.

I am writing in general not to any individual.

[Dennis1209]

Several years and a few pastors ago, that pastor at this time of year led us to sing Happy Birthday to Jesus. I was uncomfortable with that then, but what if anything is wrong with that?

We should remember that 365.25 days a year, Christ was born, sacrificed His life for us, rose from the dead, and lives today.

In appreciation of Jesus's sacrifice, those who are his are commanded to do this in remembrance of Me, with the Lord's Supper. When government, establishments, and society take offense at "Merry Christmas" and demand we greet each other with "Happy Holidays," not to offend Jews, Muslims, and atheists, Houston, we have a problem.

I get offended receiving Christmas cards with Merry Xmas and Happy Holidays, omitting Christ as the reason for the season. I do not appreciate dating in the common era either. But it is what it is.