Cheap Grace and Easy Believeism.

[FreeGrace]

2 hours ago, Luther said:

You said: " We learn what the Bible means by "predestination" in Romans 8:29 - For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. Clearly, this isn't about salvation. Rather, it is about growing up to spiritual maturity"

Please. I noticed how everything is about service or being mature in Christ but never about His work of salvation in us first.

I never said "everything" as you exaggerate here.  Of course there is no election or spiritual growth UNTIL there is salvation.  But I have been responding to your posts about election being to salvation, which you STILL HAVE NOT shown from Scripture.

2 hours ago, Luther said:

Let's pull the curtain back a little more to see all the light:

Romans 8:28-30

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

[29]For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

[30]Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

v.28 refers to spiritually mature believers (they love God).

v.29 refers to ALL believers being predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, which will be fulfilled at the Second Advent and the resurrection, where all believers will receive a body just like His.

1 John 3:2 - Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

2 hours ago, Luther said:

You said: "Not all believers persevere."

I don't think you really understand what the Gift of God is. 

I don't think you really understand what the Bible teaches.

The gift of God is eternal life, given on the basis of faith in His Son.  John 3:15,16, 5:24.  

Only when "faith" is a noun is it a gift of God.  Certainly God wrote the Bible for our benefit and instruction.  So yes, that's a gift.

But the action of believing (a verb) is NOT a gift in ANY sense.  It is a response to God's offer of eternal life, the real gift.

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, Luther said:

enoob57 said:

With such an important soteriological concept you should be able to show where an individual is chosen 'for salvation'   - just one! Clearly stating...

You talkin' to me partner? I got plenty of em' up my sleeve 😁:

lol.  You and I have on this for quite a few posts now, and you haven't ever been this confident about having clearly worded verses about being chosen for salvation

The Greek word is a different word (even different root) than the election verbs.

Further, the point of v.13 isn't being chosen for salvation period.  But God choosing the METHOD of salvation:  "THROUGH sanctification of the Spirit and belief in the truth (faith)".  That is what the verse is about. 

iow, it is God's choice about how one will be saved:  The conjunction "and" between 'sanctification' and 'belief' has a wide semantic field, and can be translated as "EVEN".  So "sanctification of the Spirit" is "belief in the truth". 

1 hour ago, Luther said:

Psalms 33:12

Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD; and the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance.

This clearly isn't about salvation.  Yes, God chose the nation or people of Israel, but reading the OT clearly shows that many in that nation were not saved.

1 hour ago, Luther said:

1 Peter 2:9-10

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

[10]Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Peter was writing to Jews, and noting the fact that God had chosen the people of Israel as His own.  Not about salvation. 

1 hour ago, Luther said:

( Compare with):

Psalms 135:4

For the LORD hath chosen Jacob unto himself, and Israel for his peculiar treasure.

Still not about salvation.  Many Jews in the OT were not saved.

1 hour ago, Luther said:

Isaiah 65:15

And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name:

Thank you for noticing being chosen is about SERVICE.

1 hour ago, Luther said:

Peter 1:2,4

Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Another very clear verse about being elected to service:

"elect according to the foreknowledge of God, through sanctification of the Spirit (2 Thess 2:13, which is belief in the truth) UNTO (for) obedience (SERVICE).

1 hour ago, Luther said:

2 Timothy 2:10

Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

When the adjective is used, it provides NO information as to the PURPOSE of said election.  Paul was referring to Jews here anyway. 

1 hour ago, Luther said:

Romans 8:30,33

Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

There is no election in this verse.  The closest we come is "called" which means "to invite" in the Greek.

1 hour ago, Luther said:

[33]Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Another adjective which doesn't add anything to understanding the purpose of election.  It's simply a description of believers.

No verse says that God causes people to believe.  Rather, Rom 10:1o says that man believes from the heart.  Proving that believing comes from within ourselves.

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, Who me said:

Salvation is a two way process.

Like an offer that is received.

1 hour ago, Who me said:

God challenges and makes a sinner aware of sin and there need of salvation.

The sinner responds byrepenting, having a changed mind about previous behaviour and accepting salvation.

I think you forgot the free gift offer.  Think Titus 2:11

1 hour ago, Who me said:

No one becomes a Christian without a serious recognitions of sin in their life and having a desire to change.

Quite true.  Until one realizes that they are lost and unsaved, why would they think they need to be saved?

1 hour ago, Who me said:

No Christian continues to live a life of sinning, this is not trying to earn God's favour but an attempt to live a Christ honouring life.

The only time a believer isn't sinning is when he/she is in fellowship with the Lord (1 John 1:9) and filled with the Spirit (Eph 5:18).

When a person is filled with the Spirit, 1 John 3:9 applies.  

But, when a believer is grieving (Eph 4:30) or quenching (1 Thess 5:19) the Spirit, they are out of fellowship and NOT filled with the Spirit.

[TheBlade]

On 12/31/2024 at 12:36 AM, Ausie 52 said:

Today's gospel preaching is mostly cheap grace & easy believeism.

By cheap grace I mean, belief without cost, no discipleship, no real commitment to the Lord Jesus Christ.

By easy believeism I mean, just mental assent to the facts of Christ's death & resurrection. A faith without repentance, without obedience.

Should you think this is a Calvinist issue, it is not. I am an Arminian and I agree with the likes of John Macarthur on this issue as do most Evangelical Arminians.

The Church is at an all time low because the Gospel preached is 'another Gospel' not that of the New Testament.

It is time for a new reformation, getting back to the Bible, for faithful preaching of the true Gospel.

Christ said they will know you are mine by your love one for another. So "what's being preached today is another gospel not that of the NT". You don't fully understand what your saying. Well they say there is just in the USA up to 400,000  Churches. So how many of them have you been sitting in on, listening to or watched on youtube or on their web site? Went to all the Churches in your town/city?  Forgive me but you make this statement based on what facts? 

So if we look at what was being done and taught/preached just in Acts and compare that to say just John MacArthur (a great man of God) we find hmm something is missing when it comes to what John MacArthur teaches. How is that not another gospel? One says part is gone does not happen any more.  The flip side you know those that preach "faith" and gifts are not dead.. well let me quote what I read just today from "Christians" "they are scum of the earth".  

So if you want to get back to the Bible.. haha sorry old song by Chris Christian "we got to get back to the bible" then get out there and be like Christ calling the sinner to repent and then seeing the lame walk the dumb speak the blind see the deaf hear. Did He not say these signs shall follow them that believe. If I was to just look at that and what I see today then it seems many do not truly believe..right? ;)

 Do you how many people came to Christ 2023/2024? Millions. Yes that's with a "s". That's not some denomination its just believing "Yeshua/Jesus Christ came in the flesh died on the cross for the worlds sin was buried rose the 3rd day and is seated at the right hand of the Father the only way to Father."  

In truth no offense but I have no clue what you been watching seeing. Not what I see. This is the greatest time to be alive! I could give you one pastors names.. a know preacher and you can ask him about just teens and the thousands.. that are on fire for Christ! Its AWESOME! Maybe ask God to show you what He is doing.

 

[BornAgain490]

3 hours ago, Luther said:

You stated: "Regardless, I'm confident God is not going to be one person shy of all that He has predestinated and called out of darkness."

Amen. Why do you think predestination is such a hard thing to accept?

 

I don't think predestination is hard to accept; Paul clearly taught it. (See, Romans 8; Ephesians 1). 

As C. H. Spurgeon said for the doctrine of election, the same can be said of predestination,  "it's written in the Bible as with an iron pen, and there is no getting rid of it."

The way I see it, which is what the Bible teaches, is that God is sovereign; He alone is the determining cause of who will be saved.  It is God's efficacious grace and absolute election that men are saved, justified by faith, sanctified by the Holy Spirit, adopted as sons and daughters, persevere in faithfulness and sanctification, and are glorified forever with Him, not by man's own free will, but by the sovereign will of God. 

[Luther]

2 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

I never said "everything" as you exaggerate here.  Of course there is no election or spiritual growth UNTIL there is salvation.  But I have been responding to your posts about election being to salvation, which you STILL HAVE NOT shown from Scripture.

v.28 refers to spiritually mature believers (they love God).

v.29 refers to ALL believers being predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, which will be fulfilled at the Second Advent and the resurrection, where all believers will receive a body just like His.

1 John 3:2 - Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

I don't think you really understand what the Bible teaches.

The gift of God is eternal life, given on the basis of faith in His Son.  John 3:15,16, 5:24.  

Only when "faith" is a noun is it a gift of God.  Certainly God wrote the Bible for our benefit and instruction.  So yes, that's a gift.

But the action of believing (a verb) is NOT a gift in ANY sense.  It is a response to God's offer of eternal life, the real gift.

Romans 8:30

Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

I am honestly perplexed on where we are going in this conversation, although much appreciated, what have we established thus far? 

Q: Are God's Elect people saved? Are they called? Are they predestinated ( pre- determined, ordained)?  I would say yes of course. Who else would God be concerned with? With the exception of Judas, God's people are His elect. Do you agree? 

To be " justified" ( Romans 8:30) is another way to say saved from your sins. You are made just or righteous before God through the faith of Christ. 

(If you don't mind):

(Yes or No) God's Elect are are saved.

( Yes or No) To be justified also means to be saved from your sins.

( Yes or No) God knows who He will save because Christ atoned for that individuals sins long before they were born. 

( Yes or No) Believing on Jesus Christ comes as a RESULT of the good work He has done in us FIRST. 

( Yes or No) If receiving eternal life was based solely on man's decision, no one would become saved because No one seeks after Him (Rom.3:11), no man can come to Him ( Jn.6:44)

Choose Carefully.....😉

[Luther]

38 minutes ago, BornAgain490 said:

I don't think predestination is hard to accept; Paul clearly taught it. (See, Romans 8; Ephesians 1). 

As C. H. Spurgeon said for the doctrine of election, the same can be said of predestination,  "it's written in the Bible as with an iron pen, and there is no getting rid of it."

The way I see it, which is what the Bible teaches, is that God is sovereign; He alone is the determining cause of who will be saved.  It is God's efficacious grace and absolute election that men are saved, justified by faith, sanctified by the Holy Spirit, adopted as sons and daughters, persevere in faithfulness and sanctification, and are glorified forever with Him, not by man's own free will, but by the sovereign will of God. 

Yes, Amen for ever. 

I just wonder if God will have us all on the same page before He comes. 

1 Timothy 2:3-4

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

[4]Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

[BornAgain490]

7 minutes ago, Luther said:

Yes, Amen for ever. 

I just wonder if God will have us all on the same page before He comes. 

1 Timothy 2:3-4

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

[4]Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Perhaps coming unto the knowledge of the truth will occur for all those of whom are in Christ when we are all glorified with Him.  Then there will be no question as to the absolutes we seek concerning this or that. 

But we debate and argue over things that have been debated and argued for centuries, by learned godly men who were diametric one toward another over this matter or that.  Keep in mind (I must remind myself):  "Iron sharpens iron; so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend."  (Proverbs 27:17). 

That which Rupert Meldenius had to say about Christian's behaving one to another is also instructive (this, too, I must remind myself): "In essentials unity. In nonessentials liberty. In all things charity."

And those who are in Christ that went before us, who differed in one doctrinal point or another, as long as they were not heretical, are now in the presence of the Lord in heaven because they, like us, are saved by God's grace. 

All of us are still in a learning state; and though some are clearly more learned than others, God alone is the One who knows all.   

[FreeGrace]

2 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

As C. H. Spurgeon said for the doctrine of election, the same can be said of predestination,  "it's written in the Bible as with an iron pen, and there is no getting rid of it."

Did Spurgeon know that election is to service?  That is what is written in the Bible.

2 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

The way I see it, which is what the Bible teaches, is that God is sovereign; He alone is the determining cause of who will be saved.

Absolutely!  And the Bible is quite clear as to HOW God determines who will be saved.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

The verse doesn't say "God was pleased WITH the foolishness of what was preached", but THROUGH it.  iow, God was pleased to save those who believe.

It is and has always been about choice.  The fact that the Bible says that men REFUSE to believe proves that they ARE ABLE to believe.

Refusing is only an option when there is the ability/capacity do DO something.

Does it make sense or sound logical that a quadriplegic can REFUSE to get out of bed on their own power, when they DON'T have the ability or capacity to do it in the first place?  Of course not.  That would be idiotic.

[FreeGrace]

2 hours ago, Luther said:

Romans 8:30

Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

There is nothing in this or any other verse that says that God unconditionally chooses anyone for salvation.  And 1 Cor 1:21 is very clear about what pleases God:  For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

2 hours ago, Luther said:

I am honestly perplexed on where we are going in this conversation, although much appreciated, what have we established thus far?

We have established that you believe Calvinist theology.

2 hours ago, Luther said:

Q: Are God's Elect people saved? Are they called? Are they predestinated ( pre- determined, ordained)?  I would say yes of course. Who else would God be concerned with? With the exception of Judas, God's people are His elect. Do you agree? 

The people of Israel were chosen by God, yet reading through the OT it is clear that a whole lot of them were never saved.  So, I don't agree with your blanket statement.  And this issue is that there are NO verses that say that God unconditionally chooses who He will save.  The Bible is crystal clear that there IS a condition, and that condition is believing in the finished work of Christ on the cross.  1 Cor 1:21

2 hours ago, Luther said:

To be " justified" ( Romans 8:30) is another way to say saved from your sins. You are made just or righteous before God through the faith of Christ. 

The Bible is clear here as well.  Abraham BELIEVED God and He (God) imputed righteousness to him (Abraham).  

Rom 4:3 - What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

Gal 3:6 - So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

James 2:23 - And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend.

The faithfulness of Christ in going to the cross was for humanity, everyone.  And that saves no one.  Everyone is saved by grace THROUGH FAITH.  

2 hours ago, Luther said:

(Yes or No) God's Elect are are saved.

I will state it the way the Bible does:  Eph 1:4  "God chose us (believers. . . to be holy and blameless (service).  v.19 defines "us" as "us who BELIEVE"

2 hours ago, Luther said:

( Yes or No) To be justified also means to be saved from your sins.

Yes

2 hours ago, Luther said:

( Yes or No) God knows who He will save because Christ atoned for that individuals sins long before they were born.

Very misleading.  Christ died for everyone and the Bible says so in plain language.  Since God is omniscient, He has always known who will believe and who will REFUSE to believe.  So God has always known who He will save.  In fact, "God is pleased . . . to save those who BELIEVE", per 1 Cor 1:21.

2 hours ago, Luther said:

( Yes or No) Believing on Jesus Christ comes as a RESULT of the good work He has done in us FIRST.

Absolutely NOT.  Believing on Jesus Christ comes from the heart, per Rom 10:10 - For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

2 hours ago, Luther said:

( Yes or No) If receiving eternal life was based solely on man's decision, no one would become saved because No one seeks after Him (Rom.3:11), no man can come to Him ( Jn.6:44)

Choose Carefully.....😉

Easy peasy.  I know what Scripture SAYS about salvation.

Receiving eternal life DEPENDS on believing the gospel promise.

John 3:15 - that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”

john 3:16 - For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:36 - Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

John 6:47 - Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

1 Tim 1:16 - But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.

1 John 5:13 - I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Since man can REFUSE to believe, he is JUST AS ABLE to believe.  

Or prove the opposite;  refusing isn't a choice between options.