Annihilationism

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, LuftWaffle said:

So Paul was wrong?

No.  Your view is.  As I've shown.

[Your closest friendnt]

45 minutes ago, LuftWaffle said:

Ok, so you didn't actually respond to the two verses I posted, the one in Corinthians stating that immortality is given to the saved, or that the unsaved will be destroyed in both body and soul in hell, which directly contradicts your claim that souls cannot be destroyed.

Instead you offered a word search of the word Gehenna. I'm not sure why, because it supports Annihilationism and not eternal conscious torment. Gehenna was known as 'the valley of slaughter', where people were EXECUTED and the DEAD bodies were CONSUMED by fire. How exactly does any of this support the idea of living forever while being tormented and never being destroyed?

The Jews had their beliefs and they believed that some people were so bad that they threw their bodies to be destroyed by the fire so they will not be raised from the dead and live amongst them again. No body no resurrection that's what they believed. 

His disciples who heard him they never teach what you are saying. 

Edited January 15 by Your closest friendnt

[LuftWaffle]

3 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Consider the text in Revelation 20 and the Words written by John of what he witnessed and read that text and comment which has unshaven reliability and credibility. 

Try not to sidetrack with comments on the person but do as you wish. I have no time for that no even to respond to personal comments. 

I did not enter a discussion for that. 

The angel tells John that the symbol of the lake of fire, refers to the second death. So this again affirm what I've been saying, that the unsaved will die.

Just like the Lamb in Revelation refers to Jesus, so does the lake of fire refer to the second death. These are symbols and it's incorrect to treat symbolism as literal and to reinterpret plain text according to those symbols.

[LuftWaffle]

3 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

The Jews had their beliefs and they believed that some people were so bad that they threw their bodies to be destroyed by the fire so they will not be raised from the dead and live amongst them again. No body no resurrection that's what they believed. 

His disciples who heard him they never teach what you are saying. 

You're the one who brought up Gehenna not me. So now you blame the Sadducees because the prooftext you offered, in order to reinterpret Paul backfired.

[FreeGrace]

8 minutes ago, LuftWaffle said:

Lol, what an emotionally incontinent response.

Why, thank you for your opinion.  But with the issue of annihilationism, all the emotionally incontinence is on your side.  You've got zero evidence from Scripture because Scripture clearly indicates what happens to those who will be cast into the LOF:  eternal punishment.  If a person ceases to exist, there can be NO MORE punishment.  Or please explain how punishment continues when the person is NOT THERE.

8 minutes ago, LuftWaffle said:

 
I mean why is asking someone if they're pro-life a "Ridiculous Question".

How many believers do you know who are on the anti-life side?

8 minutes ago, LuftWaffle said:

Should I just assume that all strangers are pro-life or are you arrogant enough to think that anybody should just know what your beliefs are on an internet forum?

So, to you, this is just "an internet forum"??  Really?  Haven't you read the title of the forum?  You should at least do that.

But since it seems you are not familiar with what kind of forum this is, maybe I should question the status of your soul.  What do you think?

8 minutes ago, LuftWaffle said:

Ok, it seems you're basically making 3 arguments if I distill the hysterical arguments of yours down to their core:
1. All verses must be interpreted according the lake of fire.
2. Death cannot be a punishment since there are no degrees.
3. Death cannot be a punishment because once dead, the person doesn't feel the punishment anymore.

Seems you really like snide snotty remarks.  First, it's my "emotional incontinence" and now it's my "hysterical arguments".  lol.  I provided clear verses that support my views, which, btw, is WHY I have my views.  They come from the Bible.

#1  of course every verse about the LOF should be interpreted that way.

#2  self evident

#3  also very self evident

8 minutes ago, LuftWaffle said:

So, let's tackle them quickly so you can carry on freaking out like a little girl at every sentence I wrote.

So now you've added my "freaking out like a little girl".  Way to go.  Are you feeling better now?

8 minutes ago, LuftWaffle said:

1. The lake of fire is a part of a vision that John saw, and the interpreting angel, explained to John that the lake of fire symbolises the second death.

Wrong.  No angel called the LOF a symbol of anything.  John himself described the LOF as "the second death".  Thanks for the opportunity to inform you of truth.

8 minutes ago, LuftWaffle said:

So the lake of fire isn't literal, it's a symbol referring to the second death.

I'm just not at all interested in your opinions.  I guess you are also not aware of Matt 25:41,46 either.  

41 - “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

46 - “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Arguments against the LOF being eternal punishment are delusional.

8 minutes ago, LuftWaffle said:

 This is further evidenced by the fact that things thrown in the lake of fire cease to exist, like the harlot which is 'found no more'.

Citation please.  I don't trust opinions.  Furthermore, the words "found no more" would refer to one's human body, not their soul.  

8 minutes ago, LuftWaffle said:

2. If there cannot be degrees of death, please explain why you said, "Their fav form of execution was using the cross, probably one of the most painful ways to die ever."

Because it was, obviously.  The word "excruciating" means "out from the cross".

As to degrees of death, no one has said anything like that.  So please, pay attention.  Jesus Himself spoke of more or less BEARABLE and I gave the verses.  You are free to not believe whatever you want, but it is the Savior's words.

8 minutes ago, LuftWaffle said:

So it seems that death can have varying forms of pain, intensity, duration etc.
Thanks for making my argument for me

And how's that, exactly?  Don't you argue for annihilation?  That doesn't involves varying degrees, etc.

8 minutes ago, LuftWaffle said:

3. If death is the avoidance of punishment as you claim, then when the Mosaic law prescribed the death penalty (usually stoning) for the worst kinds of crimes, were these in your view an avoidance of punishment, since once dead, they didn't feel the stones anymore?

Do you actually think that a dead person feels stones being thrown at the corpse????

8 minutes ago, LuftWaffle said:

Do you believe Jesus took our punishment on the cross? Jesus' death on the cross an avoidance of punishment too?

Yes to #1.  No to #2.  

8 minutes ago, LuftWaffle said:

 Sperg out in 3....2....1....

Speaking in tongues now?

[FreeGrace]

16 minutes ago, LuftWaffle said:

The angel tells John that the symbol of the lake of fire, refers to the second death. So this again affirm what I've been saying, that the unsaved will die.

Again, NO angel told John any such thing.  You really need to READ Revelation.

Rev 20:14 - hen death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.  NO angel here.

And the text begins at v.11 - Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.

John was explaining what he saw, not what an angel told him.

[LuftWaffle]

4 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

This is a common defense for the annihilationists.  However, the verse doesn't say that God either has or will exterminate any soul.  Of course He has the power to do it.  That isn't in question.  The issue is whether there are CLEAR and UNAMBIGOUS verses that show that souls will cease to exist.

Good luck since there are no such verses.

No, what most annihilationists believe is that the unsaved will cease to live.

It is a common defense of those, such as yourself, believing in eternal conscious torment to attempt to reframe the Annihilationist view to be the cessation of existence instead of cessation of life.

They do this because they know full well there are tons of scripture from Genesis to Revelation stating clearly that the fate of the unsaved is death and that immortality is a gift granted only to the saved. Because they cannot argue against this mountain of scriptural evidence, and because they know they cannot dismiss every single verse with 'muh Lake Of Fire', they resort to low tier strawman arguments.
 

[Your closest friendnt]

2 hours ago, LuftWaffle said:

The angel tells John that the symbol of the lake of fire, refers to the second death. So this again affirm what I've been saying, that the unsaved will die.

Just like the Lamb in Revelation refers to Jesus, so does the lake of fire refer to the second death. These are symbols and it's incorrect to treat symbolism as literal and to reinterpret plain text according to those symbols.

They were souls, men without their earthly physical body.

This has nothing to do with their earthly physical body. Because when they were judged, they were souls, they were brought to be judged from Hades from the place of the dead. And from Death. From the place they were taken to after the death of their body. Or after they died. After they died they are called the dead. 

Revelation 20:14 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.

15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

Edited January 15 by Your closest friendnt

[FreeGrace]

13 minutes ago, LuftWaffle said:

  FreeGrace said:

This is a common defense for the annihilationists.  However, the verse doesn't say that God either has or will exterminate any soul.  Of course He has the power to do it.  That isn't in question.  The issue is whether there are CLEAR and UNAMBIGOUS verses that show that souls will cease to exist.

Good luck since there are no such verses.

No, what most annihilationists believe is that the unsaved will cease to live.

Every one of that ilk believe that the unsaved will cease to exist.

13 minutes ago, LuftWaffle said:

It is a common defense of those, such as yourself, believing in eternal conscious torment to attempt to reframe the Annihilationist view to be the cessation of existence instead of cessation of life.

I know what the Bible says and have shared it with you.  You are free to believe whatever you wish.

13 minutes ago, LuftWaffle said:

They do this because they know full well there are tons of scripture from Genesis to Revelation stating clearly that the fate of the unsaved is death and that immortality is a gift granted only to the saved.

Heb 9:27 SAYS that "it is appointed for man to die once, and then the judgment".  How can one even attend the judgment if they don't exist.

I think you're just playing word games.  There is eternal punishment because the Bible says so, and actually describes it in Rev 20:10.  Why have you chosen to ignore or reject that verse?

13 minutes ago, LuftWaffle said:

Because they cannot argue against this mountain of scriptural evidence, and because they know they cannot dismiss every single verse with 'muh Lake Of Fire', they resort to low tier strawman arguments.

What have you quoted that proves your claim?

The 'mountain of Scriptural evidence for ECT is Matt 25:41,46,  Rev 20:10'.  

[Your closest friendnt]

@LuftWaffle

 

ΜΑΤΘΑΙΟΝ 10:28 Greek NT: Nestle 1904
καὶ μὴ φοβεῖσθε ἀπὸ τῶν

Do not be afraid from those 

ἀποκτεννόντων τὸ σῶμα, τὴν

Who can Kill the body, the

δὲ ψυχὴν μὴ

the soul not 

δυναμένων ἀποκτεῖναι

able to kill

φοβεῖσθε δὲ μᾶλλον τὸν

Be afraid rather from the one

δυνάμενον καὶ ψυχὴν καὶ

who is able the soul and 

σῶμα ἀπολέσαι ἐν γεέννῃ. 

body to get lost in gennea. 

----ἀπολέσαι Is not kill. Kill is ἀποκτεῖναι

 

Luke 15:4  the lost sheep 
GRK: πρόβατα καὶ ἀπολέσας ἐξ αὐτῶν
NAS: sheep and has lost one
KJV: sheep, if he lose one of
INT: sheep and having lost of them

The meaning of the Greek word apolesas is not to kill. As in the ἀπολέσας sheep the lost sheep. 

The Greek word for kill is ἀποκτεῖναι

Edited January 15 by Your closest friendnt