" Replacement Theology"

[JohnD]

We are the victims of our own jargon, are we not?

Buzz words, watch words, all trigger predetermined doctrines resulting in endless

theological rabbit trail arguments.

The thing to do is stop abiding by what man thinks and man teaches and seek the

tutelage of the holy Spirit who wrote the Bible through the writing prophets. Only

his interpretation matters (2 Peter 1:20-21, Isaiah 28:9-13, Proverbs 25:2, Deuteronomy 29:29).

[JohnD]

This is what I believe (and have verified by scripture (1 Thessalonians 5:21, 1 John 4:1)... 

That Romans 11 defines the called / elect as an INCLUSION THEOLOGY rather than a replacement theology.

That the distinction between saved and lost is as it has always been dependent upon an individual's faith

rather than their nationality (Romans 2:28-29, Romans 9:6).

That there is no doubt that God called the Jewish people apart to usher into this evil world his word in two forms

(the written word and the Living Word). And for enduring the suffering as a people for that gestation and birth

(Revelation 12) the woman Israel (Genesis 37:9) has a special election / calling in this wold / this life...

There is a Physical Israel and a Spirit Israel (Romans 2:28-29, Romans 9:6, Philippians 3:3, John 4:24).

Physical Israel consists of the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Spirit Israel consist of the spiritual 

seed / heirs of Abraham through faith in Christ Jesus (Genesis 18:18, Genesis 22:18, Isaiah 14:1, Jeremiah 31:31-34, Ephesians 2:11-22).

Physical Jews can become Spirit Jews through faith in Yeshua Jesus. Physical Gentiles can become Spirit Jews through faith in Yeshua Jesus (John 3:16-18).

Physical Jews are the chosen of this world while Spirit Jews are the chosen of heaven (Galatians 3:24-28, Galatians 4:21-31). 

All that truly matters is John 3:16-18.

[Jaydub]

On 1/10/2025 at 8:36 AM, Retrobyter said:

Okay, let's talk this out: The holy city - the AWESOME city, the New Jerusalem, will be 1380 miles long, 1380 miles wide and 1380 miles high! IT'S A LITERAL CITY that will sit upon the New Earth after the earth has gone through the Fire. There are twelve foundations (which I believe are "foundational LEVELS") to the city supported by the wall great and high, and there are twelve gates into the city. Since each foundational level is identified as one of the twelve "apostles" ("missionaries"), and each gate around the city is identified by one of the twelve tribes of Israel, then there is a COORDINATE SYSTEM for identifying where within this HUGE city one is! These names serve a PURPOSE!

What you are describing are floors, 1st floor through 12th floor. Any multilevel structure, the floors are tied together to the walls for stability. These floors are never called foundations. A foundation is something built upon. The fact that you turn 144000 furlongs into 1380 miles, means you don't understand the purpose of the vision.

First you have the twelve gates with 12 angels at the gates. 12x12= 144 angels

On the gates the names of the twelve tribes 12x12 144 names

12 foundations with the apostles names on them 12x12 144 names

Its length 12,000 furlongs, its with 12,000 furlongs= 144,000,000 sq. furlongs

Each wall, 144,000,000 sq. furlongs. Its floor and celling 144,000,000 sq. furlongs 

12 foundations each 12,000,000 furlongs long= 144,000 total length. A cube has 12 corners each 12,000 furlongs long. Total length of the corners 144,000 furlongs in length

12 jewels on the 12 foundations. 12x12= 144 jewels and the walls are 144 cubits thick.

John is taken in spirit, he is carried away in spirit to to a great high mountain and shown New Jerusalem coming down from heaven as a bride. This vision is to take us back to the 144000, the bride of Christ. all Gods people. This city is a picture of Gods people with God at the center

[Luther]

10 hours ago, JohnD said:

This is what I believe (and have verified by scripture (1 Thessalonians 5:21, 1 John 4:1)... 

That Romans 11 defines the called / elect as an INCLUSION THEOLOGY rather than a replacement theology.

That the distinction between saved and lost is as it has always been dependent upon an individual's faith

rather than their nationality (Romans 2:28-29, Romans 9:6).

That there is no doubt that God called the Jewish people apart to usher into this evil world his word in two forms

(the written word and the Living Word). And for enduring the suffering as a people for that gestation and birth

(Revelation 12) the woman Israel (Genesis 37:9) has a special election / calling in this wold / this life...

There is a Physical Israel and a Spirit Israel (Romans 2:28-29, Romans 9:6, Philippians 3:3, John 4:24).

Physical Israel consists of the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Spirit Israel consist of the spiritual 

seed / heirs of Abraham through faith in Christ Jesus (Genesis 18:18, Genesis 22:18, Isaiah 14:1, Jeremiah 31:31-34, Ephesians 2:11-22).

Physical Jews can become Spirit Jews through faith in Yeshua Jesus. Physical Gentiles can become Spirit Jews through faith in Yeshua Jesus (John 3:16-18).

Physical Jews are the chosen of this world while Spirit Jews are the chosen of heaven (Galatians 3:24-28, Galatians 4:21-31). 

All that truly matters is John 3:16-18.

I agree with mostly everything you've said except your supposition of  "inclusion theology". God is not basing His plan of salvation on the inclusion of old testament covenant breakers or any people for that matter. His plan is the "fulfillment" of the law through Jesus Christ and his faith. 

[Anne2]

What would a theology be called that sees the Israel of Christ according to the spirit as distinct from Israel according to the flesh  and Israel according to the flesh has a distinct purpose in the world?

Is it acceptable to think Israel still maintains Gods Righteous Judgement in this world?

Not on the Church, but on the world?

Israel came out of Egypt to bring nations to his Judgement. We in Christ are not subject to that judgment. Are they still called for that, here for that?

Edited January 13 by Anne2

[Luther]

Just now, Anne2 said:

What would a theology be called that sees the Israel of Christ according to the spirit as distinct from Israel according to the flesh are  and Israel according to the flesh has a distinct purpose in the world?

Is it acceptable to think Israel still maintains Gods Righteous Judgement in this world?

Not on the Church, but on the world?

Israel came out of Egypt to bring nations to his Judgement. We in Christ are not subject to that judgment. Are they still called for that, here for that?

No. There is no relevant purpose for the nation of Israel. First off, modern Jews don't even practice the religion of ancient Israel as we have always been led to believe. Secondly, the religion of the God of Israel is Christianity. Always had been. That's the end goal. 

[Anne2]

49 minutes ago, Luther said:

No. There is no relevant purpose for the nation of Israel. First off, modern Jews don't even practice the religion of ancient Israel as we have always been led to believe.

Israel didn't even practice their religion in ancient Israel. They were a stiff necked people from the day they left Egypt.

Rom 3:4  God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
5  But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)
6  God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?
 

49 minutes ago, Luther said:

Secondly, the religion of the God of Israel is Christianity. Always had been. That's the end goal. 

Joh 3:17  For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

The law is made for these....
1 ti 8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
9  Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10  For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
11  According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
12  And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
13  Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

And it concludes

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. {guilty … : or, subject to the judgment of God }
 

The Purpose of the Church is salvation from Sin

Did Israels purpose end?

 

Edited January 13 by Anne2

[Luther]

1 hour ago, Anne2 said:

Israel didn't even practice their religion in ancient Israel. They were a stiff necked people from the day they left Egypt.

Rom 3:4  God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
5  But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)
6  God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?
 

Joh 3:17  For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

The law is made for these....
1 ti 8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
9  Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10  For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
11  According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
12  And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
13  Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

And it concludes

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. {guilty … : or, subject to the judgment of God }
 

The Purpose of the Church is salvation from Sin

Did Israels purpose end?

 

Yes Israel as a nation came under God's judgement. Then when their Messiah came they crucified Him. Now they practice and anti- Christ religion. 

[Your closest friendnt]

1 hour ago, Luther said:

Yes Israel as a nation came under God's judgement. Then when their Messiah came they crucified Him. Now they practice and anti- Christ religion. 

In their ignorance. And they do not have Jesus Christ and they do not have God that's for sure. 

Those Jews who believe in Jesus Christ they know that because they have the testimony of the Holy Spirit and the testimony of the prophets. As Jews they look into the testimony of the Prophets. And the testimony of the Law and the Psalms and the promises made to Abraham. If not why they believe and they are willing to die for it. Because Jesus has made himself alive in their hearts. So strong that their hearts are burning like the burning bush but are not consumed. Like their heart has turned into a hot coal. They are thinking about Jesus Christ and their heart begins to heat up like Jesus is telling them that's where I am. 

 

Edited January 13 by Your closest friendnt

[Anne2]

18 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

In their ignorance

If Jews are judged by the law this could be significant for modern Jews.

Lu 23:34  Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

This could apply to the manslayer, fleeing to the city of refuge.

Num 35:11  Then ye shall appoint you cities to be cities of refuge for you; that the slayer may flee thither, which killeth any person at unawares. {at … : Heb. by error }
12  And they shall be unto you cities for refuge from the avenger; that the manslayer die not, until he stand before the congregation in judgment.
13  And of these cities which ye shall give six cities shall ye have for refuge.
14  Ye shall give three cities on this side Jordan, and three cities shall ye give in the land of Canaan, which shall be cities of refuge.
15  These six cities shall be a refuge, both for the children of Israel, and for the stranger, and for the sojourner among them: that every one that killeth any person unawares may flee thither.

But to the generation of rulers that denied him, did not do so unwittingly...

Bribery, perjury, and enmity was going on with those rulers. But the people did not know that.

22  But if he thrust him suddenly without enmity, or have cast upon him any thing without laying of wait,
23  Or with any stone, wherewith a man may die, seeing him not, and cast it upon him, that he die, and was not his enemy, neither sought his harm:
24  Then the congregation shall judge between the slayer and the revenger of blood according to these judgments:
25  And the congregation shall deliver the slayer out of the hand of the revenger of blood, and the congregation shall restore him to the city of his refuge, whither he was fled: and he shall abide in it unto the death of the high priest, which was anointed with the holy oil.
 

Edited January 13 by Anne2