" Replacement Theology"

[Luther]

On 2/6/2025 at 4:02 PM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, @Anne2, and THANK YOU for responding!

I'm in total agreement with you up to this point. See, I UNDERSTAND that, being in Christ, we are all - Jew and Gentile - ONE in Christ, and that there is NO DIFFERENCE between Jew and Gentile ... IN CHRIST, or rather, IN THE MESSIAH.

HOWEVER, one must also understand this: This is ONLY TRUE "IN CHRIST!" Nothing is said about those outside of the Messiah being lumped together into one grouping of those considered "lost," as some call them.

OUTSIDE of the Messiah, GOD STILL MAKES A DIFFERENCE between "Jews" (children of Israel)  and "Gentiles" (people who are NOT children of Israel). That's why it is STILL known as "the kingdom of Israel," which will also include those Jews who are still outside of the Messiah ... today ... for now! They are the "Jews from Missouri": They are like the Apostle Thomas; they will require "show me" before they will believe and accept Yeeshuwa` as their King. So, God will show them! And, a "nation shall be born in a day!"

Ephesians 2:19 The word "saints" are NOT just those who "believe in Jesus" they are the "Holy Ones" - the ones who are SET APART for God's service, and have been so washed, SELECTING them for that service. This is NOT THE SAME as being "Justified by God," or as it is erroneously labeled today, being "Saved." The "saints" are NOT just "born again Christians" but also includes all those who are the descendants of the nation over which David and Solomon ruled.

There are TWO dimensions - TWO axes - on the grid of how people can be classified. One axis is "Righteousness - Evil" and the other axis is "Holy - Unholy."

The first dimension of "Righteousness - Evil" is well-known, and is what the Messiah Yeeshuwa` came to correct through His death on the cross. Believers are DECLARED by God to be His Son's Righteousness, or rather His OWN Righteousness found within His Son.

"Holy" means "CHOSEN" - "Loved" by God and given His time. "Unholy" refers to those who were "IGNORED" by God - "Hated" by God, as was Esau. One is not necessarily "chosen" by God because he or she is "righteous." Being "holy" and being "righteous" are two completely different things!

Well, a FEW were anointed by God, but we're not told that prophets were "anointed ones" nor that this was a requirement for their job as a prophet. Some were "anointed" because God told someone else to anoint him; some were "anointed" because they were PRIESTS, who ALL were "anointed" by the holy anointing oil. But, we don't know from Scripture that all of the prophets were "anointed ones."

It's important to note that a "chief corner stone" means a "head of-the-corner stone," meaning a "capstone," as in a pyramid.

I agree, but it's important to understand that this is NOT just a "vision!" It's a COVENANT that God made with David! However, again, what "kingdom" is this? It was understood that this would be the "KINGDOM OF ISRAEL" over which David himself was king at the time! Yeeshuwa`s Kingdom would be an extension of David's Kingdom!

This is very much seen in the words of Gabriel to Mary:

Luke 1:30-33 (KJV)

30 And the angel said unto her,

"Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him THE THRONE OF HIS FATHER DAVID: 33 And HE SHALL REIGN OVER THE HOUSE OF JACOB FOR EVER; and of his kingdom there shall be no end."

One should not make the mistake of thinking that this would be some nebulous, all-inclusive kingdom off in "Heaven" somewhere!

Be blessed as you ponder what that means for all of us who are a part of Christ!

( Hello my friend)

You said : " Ephesians 2:19 The word "saints" are NOT just those who "believe in Jesus" they are the "Holy Ones" 

Nah, the "saints " are believers in Jesus Christ:

Acts 9:41

[41]And he gave her his hand, and lifted her up, and when he had called the saints and widows, presented her alive.

Acts 26:10

Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them.

Romans 1:7

To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 15:25

But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.

1 Corinthians 1:2

Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

1 Corinthians 6:2

Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

You went on saying: "This is NOT THE SAME as being "Justified by God," or as it is erroneously labeled today, being "Saved." The "saints" are NOT just "born again Christians" but also includes all those who are the descendants of the nation over which David and Solomon ruled."

Revelation 15:3

And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

Revelation 19:7-8

Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

[8]And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Sometimes I think you really like to compartmentalize different words which carry the same meaning.

Jesus Christ is " King of saints ". That's everyone in His kingdom. 

And in that marriage supper of the Lamb ( Oh God may I be worthy) it's ALL OF US....with HIS  name " in our foreheads"

Revelation 22:4

[4]And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

[Retrobyter]

On 2/6/2025 at 5:41 PM, Anne2 said:

Thanks to you also for your response. We agree here.

 

This is where we part company. Today they are a nation, they are also a people that live outside the nation, within other nations. I also am not so sure about the show me, as a collective (ie nation). Has this changed? I don't know that it has..

Shalom, @Anne2.

Let's just say that "It's a work in progress." It is currently CHANGING.

Just as the Muslims around the world are having dreams of the Christ and are coming to Him through those dreams (PRAISE THE LORD), God is also working in a similar fashion within the Jewish communities. Some people are HIGHLY resistant, having been TAUGHT to distrust the "Christians," or as they call them, the "Missionaries."

But, the way that God has been making an in-road with the Jews is through their MUSIC! Paul Wilbur was holding concerts where he was sharing the promises of God's Messiah to them, and the Messianic Jews living in Israel are making some headway.

There are still set-backs as the rabbis, particularly the Orthodox rabbis, fight back against the Messianic movement, but God cannot be resisted forever, nor will He allow it!

On 2/6/2025 at 5:41 PM, Anne2 said:

Lu 16:30  And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Lu 16:31  And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Again here we part company. In my way of seeing this, this speaks to the above quote about hearing Moses..

First of all, I believe that Yeeshuwa`s words in Luke 16 are not about the current situation of the rich man in "hell," as it is defined today. I believe that He is talking about the RESURRECTION of the unjust and the Great White Throne judgment to follow, and the Lake of Fire and Sulfur after that.

By that time, the rich man KNEW that he was getting what he deserved. He was just hoping for some relief.

Having been resurrected, his memories of his family were intact, and he hoped his five brothers wouldn't have followed him there!

Secondly, Yeeshuwa` had said,

John 5:36-40 (KJV)

36 "But I have greater witness than [that] of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. 37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. 38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not. 39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life."

So, Abraham was informing this once-rich man that they should have listened to what Mosheh ("Moses") and the other prophets wrote about the Messiah!

On 2/6/2025 at 5:41 PM, Anne2 said:

We agree Saints are set apart, washed, for service. For liturgical service. This speaks to the temple ministry of priesthood....Descent has nothing to do with this priesthood. It is not according to the order of Aaron, nor the tribe of Levi. However the temple and its ministry were patterns and shadows of Christs order in Melchizedek.

This is correct, too. The order of the Aaronic priesthood could NOT provide what the Messiah alone could accomplish. He is the Priest forever after the order of Malkhiy-Tsedeq - "My King - of Righteousness," the King of "Salem" (or "the King of Peace"). However, the Aaronic priesthood will still be functioning during the Millennium, not to provide what it could not accomplish, but to serve in the other functions that a priest had. They were the TEACHERS, the BUTCHERS of the meat, the PREPARERS of the food, both meat and vegetables, that was brought to the Sanctuary, providing the pots for "seething" or boiling the stews that were prepared from that food!

See, the Levites were told,

Deuteronomy 10:8-9 (KJV)

8 At that time the LORD separated the tribe of Levi, to bear the ark of the covenant of the LORD, to stand before the LORD to minister unto him, and to bless in his name, unto this day. 9 Wherefore Levi hath no part nor inheritance with his brethren; the LORD is his inheritance, according as the LORD thy God promised him.

And, this goes back to Genesis 49 where Jacob (Israel) said,

Genesis 49:5-7 (KJV)

5 "Simeon and Levi [are] brethren; instruments of cruelty [are in] their habitations. 6 O my soul, come not thou into their secret; unto their assembly, mine honour, be not thou united: for in their anger they slew a man, and in their selfwill they digged down a wall. 7 Cursed [be] their anger, for [it was] fierce; and their wrath, for it was cruel: I will divide them in Jacob, and scatter them in Israel."

and God had said,

Leviticus 7:28-38 (KJV)

28 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

29 "Speak unto the children of Israel, saying,

"'He that offereth the sacrifice of his peace offerings unto the LORD shall bring his oblation unto the LORD of the sacrifice of his peace offerings. 30 His own hands shall bring the offerings of the LORD made by fire, the fat with the breast, it shall he bring, that the breast may be waved [for] a wave offering before the LORD. 31 And the priest shall burn the fat upon the altar: but the breast shall be Aaron's and his sons'. 32 And the right shoulder shall ye give unto the priest [for] an heave offering of the sacrifices of your peace offerings. 33 He among the sons of Aaron, that offereth the blood of the peace offerings, and the fat, shall have the right shoulder for [his] part. 34 For the wave breast and the heave shoulder have I taken of the children of Israel from off the sacrifices of their peace offerings, and have given them unto Aaron the priest and unto his sons by a statute FOR EVER from among the children of Israel. 35 This [is the portion] of the anointing of Aaron, and of the anointing of his sons, out of the offerings of the LORD made by fire, in the day [when] he presented them to minister unto the LORD in the priest's office; 36 Which the LORD commanded to be given them of the children of Israel, in the day that he anointed them, [by] a statute FOR EVER throughout their generations.'"

37 This [is] the law of the burnt offering, of the meat offering, and of the sin offering, and of the trespass offering, and of the consecrations, and of the sacrifice of the peace offerings; 38 Which the LORD commanded Moses in mount Sinai, in the day that he commanded the children of Israel to offer their oblations unto the LORD, in the wilderness of Sinai.

and Moses said,

Deuteronomy 18:1-8 (KJV)

1 "The priests the Levites, [and] all the tribe of Levi, shall have no part nor inheritance with Israel: they shall eat the offerings of the LORD made by fire, and his inheritance. 2 Therefore shall they have no inheritance among their brethren: THE LORD (YHWH) [IS] THEIR INHERITANCE, as he hath said unto them. 3 And this shall be the priest's due from the people, from them that offer a sacrifice, whether [it be] ox or sheep; and they shall give unto the priest the shoulder, and the two cheeks, and the maw (mouth, jaws and throat). 4 The firstfruit [also] of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the first of the fleece of thy sheep, shalt thou give him. 5 For the LORD thy God hath chosen him out of all thy tribes, to stand to minister in the name of the LORD, him and his sons for ever. 6 And if a Levite come from any of thy gates out of all Israel, where he sojourned, and come with all the desire of his mind unto the place which the LORD shall choose; 7 Then he shall minister in the name of the LORD his God, as all his brethren the Levites [do], which stand there before the LORD. 8 They shall have like portions to eat, beside that which cometh of the sale of his patrimony (his father's property inheritance)."

It has been no different since then, except that the children of Israel were driven out into all the earth during the diaspora. It was on May 14, 1948, that they declared their independence and formed a nation once again. It's not a kingdom, yet, for there is no one qualified to be its King ... yet! Instead, it has a "Prime Minister" - a "Chief Steward" - of the nation until the King is revealed. 

However, in the future Kingdom during the first 1,000 years, often called the "millennium," the Levites will actually have a portion of the Land as will the cohaniym (priests), descendants of Tsaadowq ("Zadok"). This will be because the Messiah will have already finished His work as "He-shall-save" His people from their sins, which is what His name, Yeeshuwa`, means! They shall still be provided their food from the sacrifices that are made, but this will not be for God's atonement, but for memorials and thanksgiving!

Ezekiel 48:10-14 (KJV)

10 And for them, even for the priests, shall be this holy oblation; toward the north five and twenty thousand in length, and toward the west ten thousand in breadth, and toward the east ten thousand in breadth, and toward the south five and twenty thousand in length: and the sanctuary of the LORD shall be in the midst thereof. 11 It shall be for the priests that are sanctified of the sons of Zadok (Hebrew: צָדוֹק = Tsaadowq = "Righteous one"); which have kept my charge, which went not astray when the children of Israel went astray, as the Levites went astray. 12 And this oblation of the land that is offered shall be unto them a thing most holy by the border of the Levites. 13 And over against the border of the priests the Levites shall have five and twenty thousand in length, and ten thousand in breadth: all the length shall be five and twenty thousand, and the breadth ten thousand. 14 And they shall not sell of it, neither exchange, nor alienate the firstfruits of the land: for it is holy unto the LORD.

As I've said before, this prophecy has yet to be realized.

On 2/6/2025 at 5:41 PM, Anne2 said:

See Ephesians. Who does it speak concerning? Certainly Gentiles. But clearly not just gentiles.

Please take note of verse 16 That he might reconcile BOTH....

12  That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13  But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 ¶  For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15  Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16  And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

***Gentiles far off,

***Jews were nigh

17  And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
 

****Again through him BOTH have access..

***Jews drew nigh to God through the priesthood. The "anointed one" bore their names on his breastplate.

Absolutely correct to here!

This is why I used this little chart:

Notice that the black, horizontal line through the chart, separating between the children of Israel and the Gentiles, is MISSING in the GREEN section! The GREEN section is "IN CHRIST." Everyone to the right of the diagonal, RED line will be in the Messiah's Kingdom when He comes.

The word "nations" in Hebrew is the word "goyim." and the sheep nations in the BLUE section at the top of the chart, will be ANNEXED into His Kingdom. The goat nations in the top RED section will be those resigned to their fate, as a nation. I believe that the individuals within those nations, however, will still have a chance to be justified by God IF they come out of their nation, seeking asylum in Israel or in a sheep nation! These nations will need to be subdued by the Messiah throughout the Millennium.

There will still be some children of Israel who foolishly resist the Messiah Yeeshuwa` being their King, such as in His parable of Luke 19:11-27, particularly in verses 14 and 27. That is the lower RED section.

On 2/6/2025 at 5:41 PM, Anne2 said:

*****The tribe of Levi were the only ones not strangers in the house God.. (the holy place, and the holy of holies)

****Jews were strangers (alienated) from those parts of Gods house.

18  For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19  Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

Both 

297 ἀμφότερος amphoteros am-fot’-er-os

comparative of amphi (around); adj;

AV-both 14; 14

1) both of two, both the one and the other 

 

Strangers are the common people of the Jews, in many things to do with the priesthood

02114 זור zuwr zoor

a primitive root; v; [BDB-266a, BDB-266b] {See TWOT on 541}

AV-stranger 45, strange 18, estranged 4, stranger + 0376 3, another 2, strange woman 2, gone away 1, fanners 1, another place 1; 77

1) to be strange, be a stranger
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to become estranged
1a2) strange, another, stranger, foreigner, an enemy (participle)
1a3) loathsome (of breath) (participle)
1a4) strange woman, prostitute, harlot (meton)
1b) (Niphal) to be estranged
1c) (Hophal) to be a stranger, be one alienated

Jews are alienated from these things....You need to be able to access, too!

This is NOT typically what "stranger" in Scripture means. Most of the time (if not ALL of the time), the word refers to "1a2) strange, another, stranger, FOREIGNER, an ENEMY (participle)." It doesn't refer to the children of Israel, particularly the Jews, except in those RARE cases in which they DENY the Messiah as their King.

On 2/6/2025 at 5:41 PM, Anne2 said:

Ex 29:33  And they shall eat those things wherewith the atonement was made, to consecrate and to sanctify them: but a stranger <02114> shall not eat thereof, because they are holy.
Ex 30:9  Ye shall offer no strange <02114> incense thereon, nor burnt sacrifice, nor meat offering; neither shall ye pour drink offering thereon.
Ex 30:33  Whosoever compoundeth any like it, or whosoever putteth any of it upon a stranger <02114>, shall even be cut off from his people.
Le 10:1  And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange <02114> fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not.
Le 22:10  There shall no stranger <02114> eat of the holy thing: a sojourner of the priest, or an hired servant, shall not eat of the holy thing.
 

Again, I point out the passage from Ezekiel 48 above. They SHALL eat of the holy things and offer sacrifices (again, not for sin, but in remembrance and thankfulness) and burn incense as they did before. Indeed, much of the future Kingdom of Israel, reigned over by the Messiah Yeeshuwa`, shall have been resurrected to new life! These men shall serve God in a Temple within the walls of Jerusalem where they may renew their duties. However, it will be important to understand that the Veil between the Holy Place and the Holy of Holies, will remain torn in half, forever memorializing the Sacrificial Death of the Messiah and the complete access we now have to the Father, YHWH God.

[Dennis1209]

On 1/5/2025 at 12:42 PM, Luther said:

Up until the last 150 years, there was never talk of a " replacement" of anyone. The eternal body of Christ was always understood to include many of those from the Nation of Israel, but never the whole nation. That teaching is a very new one in the scope of church history. 

It is too lengthy read every post, but thus far I have not seen a definition of what is believed to be called Replacement Theology, a.k.a. supersessionism, a doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church, and others.

Whereas Israel lost all their blessings and promises because they rejected and killed their Messiah, and thereby, the church inherited those blessings and promises.

This perverted theology is not a new view in historical terms, it goes all the way back to some Ante-Nicene fathers in the fourth century, and is well documented, with a single example following.

Replacement theology, also known as supercessionism, posits that God replaced the Jewish people with the church after Israel rejected Jesus as the Messiah. This doctrine interprets biblical promises to Israel as being fulfilled spiritually through the church, which is referred to as the "New Israel." The origins of replacement theology can be traced back to early Christian writings, notably by figures like Tertullian and Justin Martyr, who argued against Judaism. The Council of Nicea further solidified anti-Judaic sentiments within the church. Allegorical interpretation of scripture, particularly by Origen, played a significant role in shaping this theology. Critics argue that this view undermines the biblical promises made to Israel, as outlined in Romans 9-11, which emphasize Israel's ongoing significance in God's plan. The article concludes that a proper understanding of scripture maintains a distinct purpose for both Israel and the church, rejecting the notion of replacement theology.

The Popular Encyclopedia of Apologetics: Surveying the Evidence for the Truth of Christianity

 

[Luther]

2 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

It is too lengthy read every post, but thus far I have not seen a definition of what is believed to be called Replacement Theology, a.k.a. supersessionism, a doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church, and others.

Whereas Israel lost all their blessings and promises because they rejected and killed their Messiah, and thereby, the church inherited those blessings and promises.

This perverted theology is not a new view in historical terms, it goes all the way back to some Ante-Nicene fathers in the fourth century, and is well documented, with a single example following.

Replacement theology, also known as supercessionism, posits that God replaced the Jewish people with the church after Israel rejected Jesus as the Messiah. This doctrine interprets biblical promises to Israel as being fulfilled spiritually through the church, which is referred to as the "New Israel." The origins of replacement theology can be traced back to early Christian writings, notably by figures like Tertullian and Justin Martyr, who argued against Judaism. The Council of Nicea further solidified anti-Judaic sentiments within the church. Allegorical interpretation of scripture, particularly by Origen, played a significant role in shaping this theology. Critics argue that this view undermines the biblical promises made to Israel, as outlined in Romans 9-11, which emphasize Israel's ongoing significance in God's plan. The article concludes that a proper understanding of scripture maintains a distinct purpose for both Israel and the church, rejecting the notion of replacement theology.

The Popular Encyclopedia of Apologetics: Surveying the Evidence for the Truth of Christianity

 

Hi Dennis. 

You quoted: "Whereas Israel lost all their blessings and promises because they rejected and killed their Messiah, and thereby, the church inherited those blessings and promises."

The Israelites rejected God at the time of Moses. The covenant of the works of the law was defiled, perverted and ignored by Israel.

 

However, there was to be a "remnant" of Israelites to come under the "New Covenant" which God prepared for those who received His only begotten Son. The remnant of the Israelites that God redeemed, along with the Gentiles, are the Israel of God, which was ordained before the world began.

The only promise of eternal life that God ever made with humanity is through THE LORD JESUS CHRIST, while we have today. This is the fulfillment or completion of the promise of eternal life to all who are in Christ :

Genesis 17:5-8

Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

[6]And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.

[7]And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

[8]And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

Hebrews 11:8-10

By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

[9]By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

[10]For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

 

 

Hebrews 9:15

And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

 

Hebrews 5:9

And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

[Anne2]

11 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, @Anne2.

Let's just say that "It's a work in progress." It is currently CHANGING.

Just as the Muslims around the world are having dreams of the Christ and are coming to Him through those dreams (PRAISE THE LORD), God is also working in a similar fashion within the Jewish communities. Some people are HIGHLY resistant, having been TAUGHT to distrust the "Christians," or as they call them, the "Missionaries."

But, the way that God has been making an in-road with the Jews is through their MUSIC! Paul Wilbur was holding concerts where he was sharing the promises of God's Messiah to them, and the Messianic Jews living in Israel are making some headway.

There are still set-backs as the rabbis, particularly the Orthodox rabbis, fight back against the Messianic movement, but God cannot be resisted forever, nor will He allow it!

Thank you for your response. I appreciate that you are willing to discuss these things .

IMO you either missed the point of the text, as well as my own. I can only be frank about this, and hope no offense is taken. The Rabbis are not listening to Moses Retro. And yes, the Church has done wrong historically. But the gospels lay down a problem, the problem. Not listening to Moses. As follows

11 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

First of all, I believe that Yeeshuwa`s words in Luke 16 are not about the current situation of the rich man in "hell," as it is defined today. I believe that He is talking about the RESURRECTION of the unjust and the Great White Throne judgment to follow, and the Lake of Fire and Sulfur after that.

By that time, the rich man KNEW that he was getting what he deserved. He was just hoping for some relief.

Having been resurrected, his memories of his family were intact, and he hoped his five brothers wouldn't have followed him there!

Secondly, Yeeshuwa` had said,

It is not about the rich man knowing he got what he deserved. The Rabbis were not listening to Moses. They did not listen to John the baptist, a prophet ( a Levite) recognized as such by the people.

Luke 7:28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.
29  And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.
30  But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.

11 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

This is correct, too. The order of the Aaronic priesthood could NOT provide what the Messiah alone could accomplish. He is the Priest forever after the order of Malkhiy-Tsedeq - "My King - of Righteousness," the King of "Salem" (or "the King of Peace"). However, the Aaronic priesthood will still be functioning during the Millennium, not to provide what it could not accomplish, but to serve in the other functions that a priest had. They were the TEACHERS, the BUTCHERS of the meat, the PREPARERS of the food, both meat and vegetables, that was brought to the Sanctuary, providing the pots for "seething" or boiling the stews that were prepared from that food!

Yes, they were the teachers. Teachers because of the priestly ministry.... The Pharisees were simply Judges.... Todat we speak of activist judges. Those which attempt to make law from the bench....by passing or usurping the legislative body..

Rabbinic Judaism today, has boldly usurped the authority of the levitical priesthood. It began under VESPASIAN. Oral law (law from the mouth, was by the high priest.... Yet Rabbis still today claim oral law was handed down to them from Moses.And these are the same who wrote the Talmud that Jew's follow today, as well as Messianics.

Yes the priesthood had become corrupt, But the gospels are a witness that so too had the Pharisees (Judges). They had both "all together" become corrupt. Yet all we hear is how corrupt (sadducees) were, and how the priesthood was not legit.

You have quoted the words of Jacob concerning his twelve sons. Focusing on Levi. Which was both before the Sinai covenant law, and concerned the last days

Ge 49:1  And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days.
 

But then you quote the Levites concerning the Sinai covenant law!

Here is Levi, in the Sinai covenant (not the last days)

The blessing of Moses

Deut 33:8  And of Levi he said, Let thy Thummim and thy Urim be with thy holy one, whom thou didst prove at Massah, and with whom thou didst strive at the waters of Meribah;
9  Who said unto his father and to his mother, I have not seen him; neither did he acknowledge his brethren, nor knew his own children: for they have observed thy word, and kept thy covenant.
10  They shall teach Jacob thy judgments, and Israel thy law: they shall put incense before thee, and whole burnt sacrifice upon thine altar.And here

11  Bless, LORD, his substance, and accept the work of his hands: smite through the loins of them that rise against him, and of them that hate him, that they rise not again.
 

And here

De 21:5  And the priests the sons of Levi shall come near; for them the LORD thy God hath chosen to minister unto him, and to bless in the name of the LORD; and by their word shall every controversy and every stroke be tried

And here

Mal 2:7  For the priest’s lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.

Mal 3:1  Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
 

Rabbinic teaching is a form of replacement theology of it's own.

The seat of Moses....The causes too difficult for the lower courts to settle. 

1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2  Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat:
3  All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

They dont remove the burden with their finger speaks to the misistry of the high priest

4  For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
 

Was Jesus  telling them to listen to the Pharisees As Judges? YES.

Was Jesus telling them to listen to the pharisees as a religious sect? No

The decisions from the seat of Moses were not SECTARIAN. The high priest and the judge had to agree on a matter/cause for the decision to have force of law. Nothing sectaeian came from that seat at that time... The only way it could have been sectarian would be if both the high priest and Judges were in fact all one sect.

Because he was high priest that year....

John 11:49  And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
50  Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
51  And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
52  And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

Just a few verses for an example..
Le 4:6  And the priest shall dip his finger in the blood, and sprinkle of the blood seven times before the LORD, before the vail of the sanctuary.
Le 4:17  And the priest shall dip his finger in some of the blood, and sprinkle it seven times before the LORD, even before the vail.
Le 4:25  And the priest shall take of the blood of the sin offering with his finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out his blood at the bottom of the altar of burnt offering.
 

The priests pronounced clean or unclean

****Tell no man.....

Joh 2:25  And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.

****This was to receive A testimony of his works from the high priest...The testimony Of God, in pronouncing him Clean....

Mt 8:4  And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto (from) them.

Edited February 8 by Anne2

[Retrobyter]

On 2/8/2025 at 8:47 AM, Dennis1209 said:

It is too lengthy read every post, but thus far I have not seen a definition of what is believed to be called Replacement Theology, a.k.a. supersessionism, a doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church, and others.

Whereas Israel lost all their blessings and promises because they rejected and killed their Messiah, and thereby, the church inherited those blessings and promises.

This perverted theology is not a new view in historical terms, it goes all the way back to some Ante-Nicene fathers in the fourth century, and is well documented, with a single example following.

Replacement theology, also known as supercessionism, posits that God replaced the Jewish people with the church after Israel rejected Jesus as the Messiah. This doctrine interprets biblical promises to Israel as being fulfilled spiritually through the church, which is referred to as the "New Israel." The origins of replacement theology can be traced back to early Christian writings, notably by figures like Tertullian and Justin Martyr, who argued against Judaism. The Council of Nicea further solidified anti-Judaic sentiments within the church. Allegorical interpretation of scripture, particularly by Origen, played a significant role in shaping this theology. Critics argue that this view undermines the biblical promises made to Israel, as outlined in Romans 9-11, which emphasize Israel's ongoing significance in God's plan. The article concludes that a proper understanding of scripture maintains a distinct purpose for both Israel and the church, rejecting the notion of replacement theology.

The Popular Encyclopedia of Apologetics: Surveying the Evidence for the Truth of Christianity

Shabbat shalom, @Dennis1209.

We've kinda danced all around the issue, although it is in the background. There are some who believe wholeheartedly in supercessionism, believing that the children of Israel have been replaced by the "church," or rather, the Gentile believers. But, for one to so believe in supercessionism, he or she must ignore or otherwise minimize or marginalize Romans 11:

Romans 11:11-32 (KJV)

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall (Greek: πέσωσιν = "pesoosin" = "they should fall", second aorist, active, subjunctive, i.e., into a permanent state)? God forbid (Greek: μὴ γένοιτο = "mee genoito" = "not shall-it-be"): but [rather] through their fall  (Greek: παραπτώματι = "paraptoomati" = "their falling-near; their lapse; their temporary deviation") salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them (Greek: τὸ παράπτωμα αὐτῶν = "to paraptooma autoon" = "the temporary lapse; the falling-near of-them") [be] the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation [them which are] my flesh, and might save some of them. 15 For if the casting away of them [be] THE RECONCILING OF THE WORLD, what [shall] the receiving [of them be], but LIFE FROM THE DEAD? 

16 For if the firstfruit [be] holy, the lump [is] also [holy]: and if the root [be] holy, so [are] the branches. 17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19 Thou wilt say then,

"The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in."

20 Well; because of UNBELIEF they were broken off, and thou standest BY FAITH. Be not highminded, but FEAR!: 21 For if God spared not THE NATURAL BRANCHES (Greek: τῶν κατὰ φύσιν κλάδων = "toon kata fusin kladoon" = "the down physical branches"), [take heed] lest he also spare not thee! 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural [branches], be graffed into their own olive tree?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers' sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance. 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Now, will everyone who reads this PLEASE take its words to heart?! These are words that you should revere as God's Word through His apostle/prophet, Paul, whom you also greatly trust to tell you the truth in the "New Testament." They are words SPECIFICALLY written to the Gentiles at Rome who worshipped there AMONG the believing children of Israel in their synagogue there! They are written to the "church" there in Rome! And, since it was written to the GENTILES who also said, "The (natural) branches [the children of Israel who did not believe] were broken off, that I [a wild olive branch] might be graffed in," they are also words that are applicable to EACH ONE who so believes in such supercessionism! Therefore, I say to each one who believes in supercessionism, READ THESE WORDS as though Paul is speaking to each one of YOU:

One can be taught this AUDACITY of supercessionism before he or she comes to the full understanding of the Gospel. Therefore, he or she must FEAR!!! For, if God could shelve the people with whom He worked so many years, what makes you think that He wouldn't do the same thing to YOU, who have no such history?! 

Paul's point is this: God is NOT through with the children of Israel for he said, "blindness IN PART is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so ALL Israel shall be saved: as it is written,

"'There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and SHALL TURN AWAY UNGODLINESS from Jacob: For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I SHALL TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS.' (Isaiah 59:20,21; 27:9 (see Septuagint); Jer. 31:33,34.)"

And, this God shall do by Himself, if need be, but for now, He'd LIKE US who are believers that Jesus is the Christ (Yeeshuwa` is the Messiah of God to be Israel's King),  or at least, CLAIM to be "believers in the Lord Jesus Christ," SHOW MERCY to the children of Israel who "have also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy," just as YOU "in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through THEIR unbelief!"

One more thing: Do this with all diligence and as rapidly as possible for Yeeshuwa` said to them, "Ye shall not see me henceforth, TILL YE (the children of Israel) shall say, 'Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord' (Psalm 118:26)." (Matthew 23:39), and "this gospel of the kingdom (good news about the Kingdom, Isaiah 52:7) shall be preached (heralded) in ALL the world for a witness unto all nations; and THEN shall the end come." (Matthew 24:29).

[Anne2]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, @Dennis1209.

We've kinda danced all around the issue, although it is in the background. There are some who believe wholeheartedly in supercessionism, believing that the children of Israel have been replaced by the "church," or rather, the Gentile believers. But, for one to so believe in supercessionism, he or she must ignore or otherwise minimize or marginalize Romans 11:

Romans 11:11-32 (KJV)

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall (Greek: πέσωσιν = "pesoosin" = "they should fall", second aorist, active, subjunctive, i.e., into a permanent state)? God forbid (Greek: μὴ γένοιτο = "mee genoito" = "not shall-it-be"): but [rather] through their fall  (Greek: παραπτώματι = "paraptoomati" = "their falling-near; their lapse; their temporary deviation") salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them (Greek: τὸ παράπτωμα αὐτῶν = "to paraptooma autoon" = "the temporary lapse; the falling-near of-them") [be] the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation [them which are] my flesh, and might save some of them. 15 For if the casting away of them [be] THE RECONCILING OF THE WORLD, what [shall] the receiving [of them be], but LIFE FROM THE DEAD? 

16 For if the firstfruit [be] holy, the lump [is] also [holy]: and if the root [be] holy, so [are] the branches. 17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19 Thou wilt say then,

"The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in."

20 Well; because of UNBELIEF they were broken off, and thou standest BY FAITH. Be not highminded, but FEAR!: 21 For if God spared not THE NATURAL BRANCHES (Greek: τῶν κατὰ φύσιν κλάδων = "toon kata fusin kladoon" = "the down physical branches"), [take heed] lest he also spare not thee! 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural [branches], be graffed into their own olive tree?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers' sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance. 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Now, will everyone who reads this PLEASE take its words to heart?! These are words that you should revere as God's Word through His apostle/prophet, Paul, whom you also greatly trust to tell you the truth in the "New Testament." They are words SPECIFICALLY written to the Gentiles at Rome who worshipped there AMONG the believing children of Israel in their synagogue there! They are written to the "church" there in Rome! And, since it was written to the GENTILES who also said, "The (natural) branches [the children of Israel who did not believe] were broken off, that I [a wild olive branch] might be graffed in," they are also words that are applicable to EACH ONE who so believes in such supercessionism! Therefore, I say to each one who believes in supercessionism, READ THESE WORDS as though Paul is speaking to each one of YOU:

One can be taught this AUDACITY of supercessionism before he or she comes to the full understanding of the Gospel. Therefore, he or she must FEAR!!! For, if God could shelve the people with whom He worked so many years, what makes you think that He wouldn't do the same thing to YOU, who have no such history?! 

Paul's point is this: God is NOT through with the children of Israel for he said, "blindness IN PART is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so ALL Israel shall be saved: as it is written,

"'There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and SHALL TURN AWAY UNGODLINESS from Jacob: For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I SHALL TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS.' (Isaiah 59:20,21; 27:9 (see Septuagint); Jer. 31:33,34.)"

And, this God shall do by Himself, if need be, but for now, He'd LIKE US who are believers that Jesus is the Christ (Yeeshuwa` is the Messiah of God to be Israel's King),  or at least, CLAIM to be "believers in the Lord Jesus Christ," SHOW MERCY to the children of Israel who "have also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy," just as YOU "in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through THEIR unbelief!"

One more thing: Do this with all diligence and as rapidly as possible for Yeeshuwa` said to them, "Ye shall not see me henceforth, TILL YE (the children of Israel) shall say, 'Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord' (Psalm 118:26)." (Matthew 23:39), and "this gospel of the kingdom (good news about the Kingdom, Isaiah 52:7) shall be preached (heralded) in ALL the world for a witness unto all nations; and THEN shall the end come." (Matthew 24:29).

I believe some have, or had replacement theology. But the Cjurch being a spiritual israel is not replacement theology. It is belief in the promises made to Abraham, OUR Father that is the focus. I think Judaism has a replacement theology of it's own.

[Retrobyter]

48 minutes ago, Anne2 said:

I believe some have, or had replacement theology. But the Church being a spiritual israel is not replacement theology. It is belief in the promises made to Abraham, OUR Father that is the focus. I think Judaism has a replacement theology of it's own.

Shalom, @Anne2.

Oh, I agree! AS LONG AS one hasn't ruled out the PHYSICAL descendants of Jacob (Israel). They are still a CHOSEN PEOPLE of the LORD (YHWH), YHWH being His Covenant Name.

Oh, and I believe it goes all the way back to Noach (Noah) and beyond to 'Aadaam (Adam), through AVraahaam ("Abraham")! I believe that EVERYONE who was in the Messiah's lineage is "of Christ," as much as the Jews were, such as His half-brother James (Ya`aqoV or "Jacob"), who became one of the leaders of the Jerusalem church. I believe ALL of these will be resurrected to be in the Messiah's Kingdom.

[I'm still at a loss how the name "Ya`aqoV" was changed into the English name, "James!"]

Here's where I find it important: Some people who are in descendants of Ya`aqoV don't even KNOW that they are his descendants, especially those of the 10 northern tribes of Israel! Rather than having the WRITTEN record of one's lineage, if one has all of his or her actual FATHERS and MOTHERS present, they will be verified DIRECTLY as their children or grandchildren or great ... grandchildren!

So, if we're going back beyond Israel to AVraahaam, why stop there? Every one of these OT saints (holy ones) were examples of faith in God, one way or another! Wouldn't we think that they, too, will be part of the roll call? After all, His Kingdom will last "forever" and "of His Kingdom there will be NO END!" Won't it be REMARKABLE to see Adam and Chavah ("Eve"), the first to die naturally, be resurrected to new life?! And, remember: Resurrection is just a form of CREATION! How else would bodies that have decayed for millennia be reformed and brought back to life?

[Retrobyter]

On 2/8/2025 at 11:54 AM, Anne2 said:

Thank you for your response. I appreciate that you are willing to discuss these things .

IMO you either missed the point of the text, as well as my own. I can only be frank about this, and hope no offense is taken. The Rabbis are not listening to Moses Retro. And yes, the Church has done wrong historically. But the gospels lay down a problem, the problem. Not listening to Moses. As follows

It is not about the rich man knowing he got what he deserved. The Rabbis were not listening to Moses. They did not listen to John the baptist, a prophet ( a Levite) recognized as such by the people.

Luke 7:28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.
29  And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.
30  But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.

Yes, they were the teachers. Teachers because of the priestly ministry.... The Pharisees were simply Judges.... Todat we speak of activist judges. Those which attempt to make law from the bench....by passing or usurping the legislative body..

Rabbinic Judaism today, has boldly usurped the authority of the levitical priesthood. It began under VESPASIAN. Oral law (law from the mouth, was by the high priest.... Yet Rabbis still today claim oral law was handed down to them from Moses.And these are the same who wrote the Talmud that Jew's follow today, as well as Messianics.

Yes the priesthood had become corrupt, But the gospels are a witness that so too had the Pharisees (Judges). They had both "all together" become corrupt. Yet all we hear is how corrupt (sadducees) were, and how the priesthood was not legit.

You have quoted the words of Jacob concerning his twelve sons. Focusing on Levi. Which was both before the Sinai covenant law, and concerned the last days

Ge 49:1  And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days.
 

But then you quote the Levites concerning the Sinai covenant law!

Here is Levi, in the Sinai covenant (not the last days)

The blessing of Moses

Deut 33:8  And of Levi he said, Let thy Thummim and thy Urim be with thy holy one, whom thou didst prove at Massah, and with whom thou didst strive at the waters of Meribah;
9  Who said unto his father and to his mother, I have not seen him; neither did he acknowledge his brethren, nor knew his own children: for they have observed thy word, and kept thy covenant.
10  They shall teach Jacob thy judgments, and Israel thy law: they shall put incense before thee, and whole burnt sacrifice upon thine altar.And here

11  Bless, LORD, his substance, and accept the work of his hands: smite through the loins of them that rise against him, and of them that hate him, that they rise not again.
 

And here

De 21:5  And the priests the sons of Levi shall come near; for them the LORD thy God hath chosen to minister unto him, and to bless in the name of the LORD; and by their word shall every controversy and every stroke be tried

And here

Mal 2:7  For the priest’s lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.

Mal 3:1  Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
 

Rabbinic teaching is a form of replacement theology of it's own.

The seat of Moses....The causes too difficult for the lower courts to settle. 

1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2  Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat:
3  All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

They dont remove the burden with their finger speaks to the misistry of the high priest

4  For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
 

Was Jesus  telling them to listen to the Pharisees As Judges? YES.

Was Jesus telling them to listen to the pharisees as a religious sect? No

The decisions from the seat of Moses were not SECTARIAN. The high priest and the judge had to agree on a matter/cause for the decision to have force of law. Nothing sectaeian came from that seat at that time... The only way it could have been sectarian would be if both the high priest and Judges were in fact all one sect.

Because he was high priest that year....

John 11:49  And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
50  Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
51  And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
52  And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

Just a few verses for an example..
Le 4:6  And the priest shall dip his finger in the blood, and sprinkle of the blood seven times before the LORD, before the vail of the sanctuary.
Le 4:17  And the priest shall dip his finger in some of the blood, and sprinkle it seven times before the LORD, even before the vail.
Le 4:25  And the priest shall take of the blood of the sin offering with his finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out his blood at the bottom of the altar of burnt offering.
 

The priests pronounced clean or unclean

****Tell no man.....

Joh 2:25  And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.

****This was to receive A testimony of his works from the high priest...The testimony Of God, in pronouncing him Clean....

Mt 8:4  And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto (from) them.

Shalom, again, @Anne2.

(I saved the best of your posts to last.)

And, when the Messiah comes IN HIS GLORY with all the holy angels with Him, you know what the Pharisees, lawyers, priests, and rabbis are going to say?

"Uhhhh .... <<<oops!>>>  ...  WELCOME, WELCOME, MESSIAH, the One Who comes on the Authority of YHWH God!"

It's going to be SO HILARIOUS! And, such a HAPPY MOMENT OF VICTORY for Israel to experience His RESCUE AS PROMISED BY GOD LONG AGO!!! Yeeshuwa`s WAR will be WITHOUT EQUAL as He THRASHES Israel's enemies until the blood flows as deep as the horses' bridles!

Among these religious leaders, there'll be a LOT of "crow being eaten" that day!

[Retrobyter]

On 2/7/2025 at 6:11 PM, Luther said:

( Hello my friend)

Shalom, my friend, @Luther

On 2/7/2025 at 6:11 PM, Luther said:

You said : " Ephesians 2:19 The word "saints" are NOT just those who "believe in Jesus" they are the "Holy Ones" 

Nah, the "saints " are believers in Jesus Christ:

Acts 9:41

[41]And he gave her his hand, and lifted her up, and when he had called the saints and widows, presented her alive.

Acts 26:10

Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them.

Romans 1:7

To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 15:25

But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.

1 Corinthians 1:2

Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

1 Corinthians 6:2

Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

You went on saying: "This is NOT THE SAME as being "Justified by God," or as it is erroneously labeled today, being "Saved." The "saints" are NOT just "born again Christians" but also includes all those who are the descendants of the nation over which David and Solomon ruled."

Revelation 15:3

And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

Revelation 19:7-8

Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

[8]And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Sometimes I think you really like to compartmentalize different words which carry the same meaning.

Jesus Christ is " King of saints ". That's everyone in His kingdom. 

And in that marriage supper of the Lamb ( Oh God may I be worthy) it's ALL OF US....with HIS  name " in our foreheads"

Revelation 22:4

[4]And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

I'm sorry it took a while to get back to your post here, but I've noticed that all of these verses have come from the New Testament. One should be aware that the word "saint" is also found in the Old Testament, as well.

For your consideration, the word is found 39 times in 36 verses within the OT:

Deu 33:2 KJV - And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand [went] a fiery law for them.

Deu 33:3 KJV - Yea, he loved the people; all his saints [are] in thy hand: and they sat down at thy feet; [every one] shall receive of thy words.

1Sa 2:9 KJV - He will keep the feet of his saints, and the wicked shall be silent in darkness; for by strength shall no man prevail.

2Ch 6:41 KJV - Now therefore arise, O LORD God, into thy resting place, thou, and the ark of thy strength: let thy priests, O LORD God, be clothed with salvation, and let thy saints rejoice in goodness.

Job 5:1 KJV - Call now, if there be any that will answer thee; and to which of the saints wilt thou turn?

Job 15:15 KJV - Behold, he putteth no trust in his saints; yea, the heavens are not clean in his sight.

Psa 16:3 KJV - [But] to the saints that [are] in the earth, and [to] the excellent, in whom [is] all my delight.

Psa 30:4 KJV - Sing unto the LORD, O ye saints of his, and give thanks at the remembrance of his holiness.

Psa 31:23 KJV - O love the LORD, all ye his saints: [for] the LORD preserveth the faithful, and plentifully rewardeth the proud doer.

Psa 34:9 KJV - O fear the LORD, ye his saints: for [there is] no want to them that fear him.

Psa 37:28 KJV - For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.

Psa 50:5 KJV - Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice.

Psa 52:9 KJV - I will praise thee for ever, because thou hast done [it]: and I will wait on thy name; for [it is] good before thy saints.

Psa 79:2 KJV - The dead bodies of thy servants have they given [to be] meat unto the fowls of the heaven, the flesh of thy saints unto the beasts of the earth.

Psa 85:8 KJV - I will hear what God the LORD will speak: for he will speak peace unto his people, and to his saints: but let them not turn again to folly.

Psa 89:5 KJV - And the heavens shall praise thy wonders, O LORD: thy faithfulness also in the congregation of the saints.

Psa 89:7 KJV - God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, and to be had in reverence of all [them that are] about him.

Psa 97:10 KJV - Ye that love the LORD, hate evil: he preserveth the souls of his saints; he delivereth them out of the hand of the wicked.

Psa 106:16 KJV - They envied Moses also in the camp, [and] Aaron the saint of the LORD.

Psa 116:15 KJV - Precious in the sight of the LORD [is] the death of his saints.

Psa 132:9 KJV - Let thy priests be clothed with righteousness; and let thy saints shout for joy.

Psa 132:16 KJV - I will also clothe her priests with salvation: and her saints shall shout aloud for joy.

Psa 145:10 KJV - All thy works shall praise thee, O LORD; and thy saints shall bless thee.

Psa 148:14 KJV - He also exalteth the horn of his people, the praise of all his saints; [even] of the children of Israel, a people near unto him. Praise ye the LORD.

Psa 149:1 KJV - Praise ye the LORD. Sing unto the LORD a new song, [and] his praise in the congregation of saints.

Psa 149:5 KJV - Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds.

Psa 149:9 KJV - To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the LORD.

Pro 2:8 KJV - He keepeth the paths of judgment, and preserveth the way of his saints.

Dan 7:18 KJV - But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

Dan 7:21 KJV - I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

Dan 7:22 KJV - Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Dan 7:25 KJV - And he shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Dan 7:27 KJV - And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom [is] an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

Dan 8:13 KJV - Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain [saint] which spake, How long [shall be] the vision [concerning] the daily [sacrifice], and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

Hos 11:12 KJV - Ephraim compasseth me about with lies, and the house of Israel with deceit: but Judah yet ruleth with God, and is faithful with the saints.

Zec 14:5 KJV - And ye shall flee [to] the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, [and] all the saints with thee.

So, tell me again; how is it just the "believers in Jesus Christ?"