What land did God promise National Israel?

[Luther]

22 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Seriously? For starters, Ezekiel 20:33ff., 34:11ff., and 39:25ff., to name just a few such OT prophecies. Many others in Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Zechariah.

And I repeat, all of these prophetic statements refer to one nation, one holy priesthood that inherits eternal life through Jesus Christ. That's what ALL the land of Israel or Canaan is about. This is allegorical language of a heavenly place. Not a literal future land grab. 

Please, read these verses carefully and tell me you can't see the heavenly kingdom of God where Christ, our good shepherd reigns!

Ezekiel 37:21-28

[21]And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

[22]And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:

[23]Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.

[24]And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

[25]And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

[27]My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

[28]And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

[AdHoc]

41 minutes ago, Luther said:

You said : "Israel's future is VITAL TO GOD'S REPUTATION. He forgives Israel for HIS sake (Ps.79:9, etc)."

Christianity was Israel's future. That's why Christ came. To save many Israelites as well as everyone else in the world. 

1 John 2:2

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Somehow we have to get past this crazy teaching that a nation of people are going to be saved based upon their former claim to fame as being the ones who rejected Christ. There's no other way but through Christ, in the New Covenant. The Old covenant is done away with, and that would include the people that continue to honor it.

But what many of you fail to realize is that the jews of today have nothing to do with the religion of the Israelites of the past. They follow their own man made religion called Judaism, which is not what Old Testament Israel followed. God no longer has anything to do with the Old covenant. He certainly has nothing to do with a religion that puts their own teachings above the Bible. 

Hebrews 8:5-7

Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

[6]But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

[7]For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

I am aware that what you have said is widely taught. But the majority are usually wrong. Sit down and quietly and accurately read Jeremiah 31:31-33 and ask yourself if  the New Covenant is not made with Israel? Here is some help;
Does the Church have TWO HOUSE?S Israel and Judah
Did the Church come out of Egypt?
Are the "fathers" of Israel fathers of the Church or do we have ONE FATHER?
Was the Church ever under Covenant of Law?
If Jesus is MEDIATOR of this New Covenant does this bind the Church?
Angels were MEDIATOR of the last Covenant of Law. Did this join them to Israel?
Does the Greek, Hebrew and the English say that the New Covenant is made with the two houses of Israel?

It is not a sin to be wrong. God made a statement through Jeremiah. The author of Hebrews repeated it. The same questions apply to Hebrews 8.

[Luther]

5 hours ago, AdHoc said:

I am aware that what you have said is widely taught. But the majority are usually wrong. Sit down and quietly and accurately read Jeremiah 31:31-33 and ask yourself if  the New Covenant is not made with Israel? Here is some help;
Does the Church have TWO HOUSE?S Israel and Judah
Did the Church come out of Egypt?
Are the "fathers" of Israel fathers of the Church or do we have ONE FATHER?
Was the Church ever under Covenant of Law?
If Jesus is MEDIATOR of this New Covenant does this bind the Church?
Angels were MEDIATOR of the last Covenant of Law. Did this join them to Israel?
Does the Greek, Hebrew and the English say that the New Covenant is made with the two houses of Israel?

It is not a sin to be wrong. God made a statement through Jeremiah. The author of Hebrews repeated it. The same questions apply to Hebrews 8.

1) The new covenant is made with the metaphorical house of Israel, and we can talk like this because God's Words are  "Spirit, and they are life" ( John 6:63).

2) The "two houses" become one  (Ezekiel 37:22).

3) God did not make a new covenant with the physical house of Israel whom he led out of Egypt, but with the spiritual house of Israel " after those days" ( Hebrews 8:9-10).

4) We have one Father, God. There are no " fathers of the church" we are all one in the body of Christ. 

5) The Church, the body of Christ is under the " law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus" ( Romans 8:2). 

6) Jesus Christ is the mediator of a  "better covenant, which was established upon better promises" ( Hebrews 8:6). 

7) Galatians 3:19 it ( the law) was ordained by angels  (messengers) in the hand of a mediator.

8) The only Covenant we should be concerned with is the new Covenant. 

Galatians 3:23-24 

But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

[24]Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

9) The Greek, Hebrew and the English lead us to the Israel of God ( Galatians 6:16). 

Hebrews 8:7-8,10,13

For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

[8]For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

[10]For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

[13]In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

( Please note that in v.10 only the house of Israel is mentioned, because it is symbolic language, not to be fretted over in light of the Israel of God, all who are in Christ. That's the important take home message here folks. If you are a born again Christian this would truly be your focus because like me, I'm zealous for the name of Jesus, not Judaism, not the occupied territories of Israel, not the blasphemous Red heifer, not the irrelevant " third temple", not the latest Revelation from Jonathan Chan man, and certainly not the mass psychosis of a " literal millennial reign".......just Jesus.)

[Anne2]

On 1/10/2025 at 2:55 PM, WilliamL said:

This is the heresy of Replacement Theology. Disproved by Paul in Romans 11:25-27

 

No, it is Covenant Theology. God made Two covenants with Abraham.

Genesis 15 and Genesis 17

Israel after the flesh still keeps God's covenant made in Genesis 15. They will remain a nation before him until this world no longer exists. As they are keeping the covenant of circumcision in the flesh...

Edited January 12 by Anne2

[Anne2]

On 1/7/2025 at 4:48 PM, Luther said:

I believe there are two " types" of promises that God made regarding  "land" in the Old Testament physical and eternal. 

Yes. Abraham dies in this covenant. 

Ge 15:15  And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.

Isaac, dies in this covenant, As does Jacob, as does the twelve patriarchs. This covenant concerns the fourth generation

16  But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.

The land is given to his seed of the fourth.......

18  In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
 

Genesis 17 is the seed called in Isaac. Which seed was Jacob/Israel.

This covenant though spoken last, is in force first in Isaac

Some Scripture which supports this

 

Abrahm given no inheritance in the land

Acts 7:2  And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran,
3  And said unto him, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and come into the land which I shall shew thee.
4  Then came he out of the land of the Chaldaeans, and dwelt in Charran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land, wherein ye now dwell.
5  And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child.
6  And God spake on this wise, That his seed should sojourn in a strange land; and that they should bring them into bondage, and entreat them evil four hundred years.
7  And the nation to whom they shall be in bondage will I judge, said God: and after that shall they come forth, and serve me in this place.

And Hebrews The Patriarch were strangers on the earth, they look for an  heavenly city.

Heb 11:13  These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

They all knew they would inherit after they were dead. Hence the promise of the resurrection from the dead.

Isaac first generation, Jacob 2nd generation, Joseph and his brethren 3rd generation. Not heirs but strangers.

Joseph certainly knew and so did Moses.

Ex 1:5  And all the souls that came out of the loins of Jacob were seventy souls: for Joseph was in Egypt already. {loins: Heb. thigh }
6  And Joseph died, and all his brethren, and all that generation.

Ex 13:19  And Moses took the bones of Joseph with him: for he had straitly sworn the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you; and ye shall carry up my bones away hence with you.

Israel after the flesh has been blinded, but they are still keeping the covenant of circumcision. Many have faith still, they are just ignorant right now...

[Luther]

50 minutes ago, Anne2 said:

Yes. Abraham dies in this covenant. 

Ge 15:15  And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.

Isaac, dies in this covenant, As does Jacob, as does the twelve patriarchs. This covenant concerns the fourth generation

16  But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.

The land is given to his seed of the fourth.......

18  In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
 

Genesis 17 is the seed called in Isaac. Which seed was Jacob/Israel.

This covenant though spoken last, is in force first in Isaac

Some Scripture which supports this

 

Abrahm given no inheritance in the land

Acts 7:2  And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran,
3  And said unto him, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and come into the land which I shall shew thee.
4  Then came he out of the land of the Chaldaeans, and dwelt in Charran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land, wherein ye now dwell.
5  And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child.
6  And God spake on this wise, That his seed should sojourn in a strange land; and that they should bring them into bondage, and entreat them evil four hundred years.
7  And the nation to whom they shall be in bondage will I judge, said God: and after that shall they come forth, and serve me in this place.

And Hebrews The Patriarch were strangers on the earth, they look for an  heavenly city.

Heb 11:13  These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

They all knew they would inherit after they were dead. Hence the promise of the resurrection from the dead.

Isaac first generation, Jacob 2nd generation, Joseph and his brethren 3rd generation. Not heirs but strangers.

Joseph certainly knew and so did Moses.

Ex 1:5  And all the souls that came out of the loins of Jacob were seventy souls: for Joseph was in Egypt already. {loins: Heb. thigh }
6  And Joseph died, and all his brethren, and all that generation.

Ex 13:19  And Moses took the bones of Joseph with him: for he had straitly sworn the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you; and ye shall carry up my bones away hence with you.

Israel after the flesh has been blinded, but they are still keeping the covenant of circumcision. Many have faith still, they are just ignorant right now...

You quoted:  "But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full."

Yes. 

You said: "Israel after the flesh has been blinded, but they are still keeping the covenant of circumcision. Many have faith still, they are just ignorant right now..."

" Israel" ( whatever that means today) simply needs the faith of Christ. The Holy Spirit can pull anyone out of a false religion. I believe salvation is completely the work of God. But seriously it really has nothing to do with the state of Israel. God isn't looking at nations of people anymore. He says that He will gather His children " one by one"  (Isaiah 27:12)

[Anne2]

14 hours ago, Luther said:

You quoted:  "But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full."

Yes. 

You said: "Israel after the flesh has been blinded, but they are still keeping the covenant of circumcision. Many have faith still, they are just ignorant right now..."

" Israel" ( whatever that means today) simply needs the faith of Christ. The Holy Spirit can pull anyone out of a false religion. I believe salvation is completely the work of God. But seriously it really has nothing to do with the state of Israel. God isn't looking at nations of people anymore. He says that He will gather His children " one by one"  (Isaiah 27:12)

He is looking at nations today. God will judge the nations on how they treat Israel. That is the wrath fortold in the law. Genesis 17 the covenant of circumcision is a covenant of Mercy, and loving kindness.

Prophetic utterances in the law.

Israel will receive wrath. That is what Jesus came to save them from first.

Lev 26: 43  The land also shall be left of them, and shall enjoy her sabbaths, while she lieth desolate without them: and they shall accept of the punishment of their iniquity: because, even because they despised my judgments, and because their soul abhorred my statutes.
44  And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the LORD their God.
45  But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I am the LORD.
46  These are the statutes and judgments and laws, which the LORD made between him and the children of Israel in mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.

When He is finished punishing them, then the Gentiles

De 30:7  And the LORD thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee.

We escape this curse in Christ. Israel has not done anything to give cause for how that nation has been treated. But God will judge the nations by this. 

Paul rightly warned not to be cut off, they can be graffed in again.

Edited January 12 by Anne2
scripture verse reference

[AdHoc]

9 hours ago, Luther said:

1) The new covenant is made with the metaphorical house of Israel, and we can talk like this because God's Words are  "Spirit, and they are life" ( John 6:63).

2) The "two houses" become one  (Ezekiel 37:22).

3) God did not make a new covenant with the physical house of Israel whom he led out of Egypt, but with the spiritual house of Israel " after those days" ( Hebrews 8:9-10).

4) We have one Father, God. There are no " fathers of the church" we are all one in the body of Christ. 

Every man I've met who doesn't agree with God's Word has a reason to make it metaphorical. So if God's Words are "spirit and life" and therefore to be taken metaphorically, your following conclusions must be explained.

Explain a metaphorical Holy Spirit and a metaphorical Life?
Explain what a metaphorical "two" is, and how it applies to metaphorical "houses"?
What is a metaphorical Covenant. What is metaphorical "New", or metaphorical Egypt?
What is a metaphorical demon and metaphorical Satan?

And since God did not lead a real Israel out of real Egypt, with their real "fathers" and gave them a real Covenant, why do you think that God would go to such lengths of 40 authors over 1,200 years to tell us a metaphorical story.

A massive absurdity.

I tell you brother, if you once decide that Israel was, and is, a physical Nation which received the Covenants and Oracles of God (Rom.3:2, 9:4), we'll talk. In the meantime continue the search for where the Church is bound by a Covenant of Law. It will be quite time consuming since Ephesians 2:15 says the opposite. But beware. The Lord Himself stated that not one jot or tittle will pass UNTIL heaven and earth pass, and promised in Luke 22 that he would feast the Passover when He returned to earth.

[Dennis1209]

17 hours ago, Luther said:

But what many of you fail to realize is that the jews of today have nothing to do with the religion of the Israelites of the past. They follow their own man made religion called Judaism, which is not what Old Testament Israel followed. God no longer has anything to do with the Old covenant. He certainly has nothing to do with a religion that puts their own teachings above the Bible. 

What are your thoughts on the following? Israel is fully prepared to build the Temple during the Tribulation period or before, including the unblemished red heifer(s) Texas-bred.

In the millennium, during Christ’s rule and reign, Israel will continue with portions of the Mosaic Law and animal sacrifice (c.f. Isa. 56:7, Jer. 33:18, Zech. 14:16-21, Mal. 3:3, Eze. 40-48, etc.)

[Anne2]

1 hour ago, Dennis1209 said:

What are your thoughts on the following? Israel is fully prepared to build the Temple during the Tribulation period or before, including the unblemished red heifer(s) Texas-bred.

In the millennium, during Christ’s rule and reign, Israel will continue with portions of the Mosaic Law and animal sacrifice (c.f. Isa. 56:7, Jer. 33:18, Zech. 14:16-21, Mal. 3:3, Eze. 40-48, etc.)

But.....What do the Rabbis say? What I mean is the ruling Sanhedrin? From what I have read they are against this, and many believe they do not need (nor want) a temple or Levitical priesthood. I say I have read...as we know how that goes, don't believe everything you read on the internet LOL.