What land did God promise National Israel?

[Anne2]

4 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Wrong understanding.

The millennial kingdom will encompass both heaven and earth.

Ok, thanks. Now I am really confused. But there is a new heaven and earth to be sure...so I don't get that, but it is there.

Can you show where this is understood from the early Church? 

[WilliamL]

1 minute ago, Anne2 said:

Ok, thanks. Now I am really confused. But there is a new heaven and earth to be sure...so I don't get that, but it is there.

Can you show where this is understood from the early Church? 

The current earth will be renewed/transformed in many ways. For example,

Zech. 14:10 All the land shall be turned into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem. Jerusalem shall be raised up and inhabited in her place from Benjamin’s Gate to the place of the First Gate and the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king’s winepresses.

--but after the Millennium, there will be a completely new earth:

Rev. 21:1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea.

Regarding the beliefs of the early (1st-2nd century) Church, there was a lot of variation. I studied the writings of the Ante-Niceme Church Fathers, but that was decades ago, so my memory is vague on the specific beliefs of the individual Fathers.

However, this biblical passage applies:

Acts 1:6 Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?”

So the disciples certainly understood that there would be a coming Kingdom of Israel on earth. (However, Jesus did not think it wise to tell them how long it would be until it took place! Could have been a real zeal-dimmer.)

[Anne2]

Thank you william.

I like that you have at least read the ante nicene fathers. I have not. I would like to though..

All I have read is the dialogue that went on with Trypho, I can't even think of the name other person,,, justin????. . But anyway, I think I remember the thousand years mentioned there. That some took it literal and others did not.

An interesting thing struck me reading that, since one thousand literal years was years into the future when this conversation took place. So whatever significance it had to each group would have either been proved to us right or wrong within a thousand years.

 

 

[Neighbor]

1 hour ago, WilliamL said:

So the disciples certainly understood that there would be a coming Kingdom of Israel on earth.

The OT  is filled with references that testify to that understanding and hope. God's chosen people had been waiting a long time, far far longer than the time of the life of anyone alive at the incarnation of Christ Jesus to become fully man to be the reconciler of the impossible.

[Luther]

3 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Many others understand the same, and have so understood since the early Church.

In the Bible, only Revelation specifically mentions the term "thousand years," but a 1000-year 7th Day Sabbath period of time was taught in Hebraic tradition before Jesus ever walked the earth. The basic principle of a Messianic Age is found in a number of places in Isaiah and elsewhere in the OT.

 

You said: "but a 1000-year 7th Day Sabbath period of time was taught in Hebraic tradition before Jesus ever walked the earth" 

I would be interesting to know if this  "Hebraic tradition" is still taught today in the synagogue. Do you know? Also I was wondering where the source came from. We also have to keep in mind that this teaching is only a form of  tradition and not Holy Scripture. I wouldn't use it in forming a Biblical basis, in other words, but it may have something to do with why this teaching is so prevalent today. 

You said: " The basic principle of a Messianic Age is found in a number of places in Isaiah and elsewhere in the OT."

Could you then please share those places in scripture with me? I have been studying this subject for over 20 years now, and have never made a connection to the notion of a literal " thousand year" reign of Jesus Christ anywhere in scripture. Thank you. 

 

[Luther]

On 1/22/2025 at 6:00 PM, Anne2 said:

Is this speaking of the millennial kingdom?

Mt 8:11  And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
 

If you don't mind my thoughts on this, if you look at the next verse,

Matthew 8:12

But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

It really looks to be parabolic language of the eternal kingdom of heaven, which immediately begins at the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

The children of the kingdom are the Jews that rejected Jesus, then and now.

Matthew 21:42-43

Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

[43]Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

[Anne2]

2 minutes ago, Luther said:

If you don't mind my thoughts on this, if you look at the next verse,

No. I am enjoying the conversation between everyone here

5 minutes ago, Luther said:

Matthew 8:12

But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

It really looks to be parabolic language of the eternal kingdom of heaven, which immediately begins at the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

Me too. That is why I asked. This kingdom is obviously made up of those in the next world, next life in the resurrection.

8 minutes ago, Luther said:

The children of the kingdom are the Jews that rejected Jesus, then and now.

Matthew 21:42-43

Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

[43]Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Agreed.

The second testament...Genesis 17

Heb 9:15  And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

I still believe revelation speaks of the Church age, And it is the Israel of God.

 

[Luther]

18 minutes ago, Anne2 said:

No. I am enjoying the conversation between everyone here

Me too. That is why I asked. This kingdom is obviously made up of those in the next world, next life in the resurrection.

Agreed.

The second testament...Genesis 17

Heb 9:15  And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

I still believe revelation speaks of the Church age, And it is the Israel of God.

 

"I still believe revelation speaks of the Church age, And it is the Israel of God."

Absolutely. All the things that are yet to come. I'm just amazed and saddened at the same time when those who say they are Christians are literally looking at prophetic scripture and replacing God's identification of them  for other people not in his covenant. They are missing out on the promises of Jesus Christ Himself, who reveals Himself and "His servants" many times in the Old Testament. I abhor those who purposely created this agenda! 

Here is Jesus Christ and His people, one of many examples. Yet most refuse to  "see" it because it will destroy their narrative completely:

Isaiah 8:17-18

And I will wait upon the LORD, that hideth his face from the house of Jacob, and I will look for him.

[18]Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion.

" I" = Jesus Christ 

" The children" = those in Christ 

" Whom the LORD hath given me" = God the Father 

I just saw this now. If I could choose my " favorite book" , hands down, Isaiah 

[WilliamL]

On 1/24/2025 at 4:40 PM, Luther said:

I would be interesting to know if this  "Hebraic tradition" is still taught today in the synagogue.

Probably mostly in Hasidic congregations, and perhaps some Orthodox ones. Those who still follow the old ways. Many synagogues today seem to be more into social politics.

On 1/24/2025 at 4:40 PM, Luther said:

Also I was wondering where the source came from.

As Tevya would say, "Tradition!" Which is to say, from ancient Jewish oral teachings, later written down in the Talmud and other books.

On 1/24/2025 at 4:40 PM, Luther said:

You said: " The basic principle of a Messianic Age is found in a number of places in Isaiah and elsewhere in the OT."

Could you then please share those places in scripture with me? I have been studying this subject for over 20 years now, and have never made a connection to the notion of a literal " thousand year" reign of Jesus Christ anywhere in scripture.

Then you don't understand Revelation 20. Also, Hebrew 4 seems to be alluding to this doctrine of a 7th millennial rest:

4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”; 5 and again in this place: “They shall not enter My rest.”

6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, 7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, “Today,” after such a long time, as it has been said: “Today, if you will hear His voice, do not harden your hearts.”

8 For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God.

As far as Isaiah goes, much of it from chapter 40 on speaks of what will take place in the Messianic Age. Also Isaiah 11, and other OT passages that speak of "the Branch," and/or "the root of Jesse," etc.

Isaiah 11:10 “And in that day there shall be a Root of Jesse,
Who shall stand as a banner to the people;
For the Gentiles shall seek Him,
And His resting place shall be glorious.”

 

Edited January 29 by WilliamL

[Anne2]

 

Mt 16:6  Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
Mt 16:11  How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?
Mt 16:12  Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
Mr 8:15  And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod.
Lu 12:1  In the mean time, when there were gathered together an innumerable multitude of people, insomuch that they trode one upon another, he began to say unto his disciples first of all, Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.
1Ti 1:4  Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.
1Ti 4:7  But refuse profane and old wives’ fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness.
2Ti 4:4  And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
Tit 1:14  Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
2Pe 1:16  For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.