God seeing into the future - The serpent

[irishbeast]

I saw an interesting question the other day on a youtube video and the Pastor on stage gave an okay answer but thought I would release it to the wild in here. 

If God is all knowing and knows what is going to happen in the future, then why did he bother creating the serpent in the first place? You could quite easily imagine a world where there was no evil and there would be bliss and harmony. On the other hand though there is no test of free will if everyone was born "pure" for want of a better world it may seem ideal but we would not have to choose between right and wrong, which is character building and since becoming a proper Christian I now realise that.

So why does God want to test people? Atheists bang the same old drum that God is mean minded and capricious as he wipes people out in the old testament and then puts people on earth to worship him as he is an evil and jealous dictator. I don't agree with that as a sweeping statement but perhaps little nit bits of it have my spidey senses tingling!

What do you all think?

[Michael37]

5 hours ago, irishbeast said:

I saw an interesting question the other day on a youtube video and the Pastor on stage gave an okay answer but thought I would release it to the wild in here. 

If God is all knowing and knows what is going to happen in the future, then why did he bother creating the serpent in the first place? You could quite easily imagine a world where there was no evil and there would be bliss and harmony. On the other hand though there is no test of free will if everyone was born "pure" for want of a better world it may seem ideal but we would not have to choose between right and wrong, which is character building and since becoming a proper Christian I now realise that.

So why does God want to test people? Atheists bang the same old drum that God is mean minded and capricious as he wipes people out in the old testament and then puts people on earth to worship him as he is an evil and jealous dictator. I don't agree with that as a sweeping statement but perhaps little nit bits of it have my spidey senses tingling!

What do you all think?

I saw this thread arrive and allowed time for other members to answer, but that was five hours ago, so it's time I shared my perspective:

The branch of Christian theology that deals with questions about the nature and purposes of God, including why God would put the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden of Eden and allow Satan to tempt Eve, is known as theodicy.

Theodicy addresses the problem of evil and attempts to reconcile the existence of evil and suffering in the world with the belief in a benevolent and omnipotent God. I have looked at what theologians and scholars have had to say in the past and have concluded that the same theme persists amongst them all, namely "it is what it is".

Here are some options:

• Free Will Defense: This argument suggests that God granted humans free will, which includes the freedom to make morally significant choices. The existence of evil is a result of humans misusing this freedom. This perspective emphasizes that genuine free will is valuable, even if it leads to the possibility of evil.

• Soul-Making Theodicy: Proposed by philosopher John Hick, this view argues that the presence of evil and suffering in the world serves as a means for spiritual growth and moral development. According to this theodicy, overcoming challenges and adversity helps individuals develop virtues like courage, compassion, and resilience.

• Greater Good Theodicy: This approach suggests that the existence of evil is justified because it ultimately leads to a greater good that could not be achieved otherwise. Some proponents argue that certain goods, such as forgiveness and redemption, can only exist in a world where evil is present.

• Divine Plan Theodicy: This perspective maintains that God has a broader, incomprehensible plan that includes the existence of evil for reasons that humans may not fully understand. Believers in this theodicy trust that God's wisdom and purposes are beyond human comprehension, and that everything ultimately contributes to the fulfillment of God's plan.

• Privation Theory: This view, influenced by the philosophy of St. Augustine, posits that evil is not a substance or entity in itself, but rather a privation or absence of good. According to this theory, everything that God created is inherently good, and evil arises when there is a lack or distortion of this goodness.

[other one]

11 hours ago, irishbeast said:

So why does God want to test people?

Do you not know that we will judge angels?     Lucifer/Satan rebelled against God and God created something to judge them because he is a just God.  He is the one who is harmed, so should he himself judge those who have harmed him?

Interestingly, he created those who were not actually qualified to be those judges and let Lucifer/Satan himself in the form of a serpent give those the qualification to judge them.

It is said that Adam introduced sin into the world but did he really, or just introduce the knowledge of sin into mankind.   After all they were running around naked before the bite of the fruit, but realized that was not good after it.  They were sinning, but was not aware of it.

God is looking for a group of mankind that he can trust not to turn on him,  and the suffering and hardship is part of that testing.  We should welcome it and learn and get stronger with it.

I guess that would be the theodicy according to OO

[other one]

5 hours ago, Michael37 said:

I saw this thread arrive and allowed time for other members to answer

It fell victim of the Super Bowl.  By the time it was over, I wasn't in the mood to read Worthy.  It was bedtime.   I did enjoy your post this morning though.  Obviously much more than the ballgame.  LoL

[irishbeast]

6 hours ago, Michael37 said:

I saw this thread arrive and allowed time for other members to answer, but that was five hours ago, so it's time I shared my perspective:

The branch of Christian theology that deals with questions about the nature and purposes of God, including why God would put the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden of Eden and allow Satan to tempt Eve, is known as theodicy.

Theodicy addresses the problem of evil and attempts to reconcile the existence of evil and suffering in the world with the belief in a benevolent and omnipotent God. I have looked at what theologians and scholars have had to say in the past and have concluded that the same theme persists amongst them all, namely "it is what it is".

Here are some options:

• Free Will Defense: This argument suggests that God granted humans free will, which includes the freedom to make morally significant choices. The existence of evil is a result of humans misusing this freedom. This perspective emphasizes that genuine free will is valuable, even if it leads to the possibility of evil.

• Soul-Making Theodicy: Proposed by philosopher John Hick, this view argues that the presence of evil and suffering in the world serves as a means for spiritual growth and moral development. According to this theodicy, overcoming challenges and adversity helps individuals develop virtues like courage, compassion, and resilience.

• Greater Good Theodicy: This approach suggests that the existence of evil is justified because it ultimately leads to a greater good that could not be achieved otherwise. Some proponents argue that certain goods, such as forgiveness and redemption, can only exist in a world where evil is present.

• Divine Plan Theodicy: This perspective maintains that God has a broader, incomprehensible plan that includes the existence of evil for reasons that humans may not fully understand. Believers in this theodicy trust that God's wisdom and purposes are beyond human comprehension, and that everything ultimately contributes to the fulfillment of God's plan.

• Privation Theory: This view, influenced by the philosophy of St. Augustine, posits that evil is not a substance or entity in itself, but rather a privation or absence of good. According to this theory, everything that God created is inherently good, and evil arises when there is a lack or distortion of this goodness.

Thank you -  That's ace :)

Some interesting theories there which I have not heard. Free will I have heard and also divine plan. I think personally the Privation theory put forward is a bit weak but I will look into it more. 

Soul Making Theodicy would make sense and it sort of dovetails with free will as free will, if used correctly of course can lead to spiritual growth. If abused of course you will just be an empty soul.

Greater Good Theodicy would sort of suggest that God wants to test people and only wants the best in heaven, which as our creator of this wonderful world, he is justified in doing so. Why should he provide so much and get nothing in return? A bit of good behaviour and worship (Not trivialising here - I'm sure you understand) is not much to ask

Funnily enough I am about half way through Deuteronomy (decided to read cover to cover, apps were annoying) where God is issuing his rules. 

I need to state here rather than repeating myself, that any questions I ask are not critique of Christianity as I believe with all my heart and soul. I just want to understand the heart of God better and sometimes there may be uncomfortable questions, which I suspect you already know given the quality of you posts I have read so far.

So I have a follow up question where God talks about a man being a false witness against his neighbour, then later it goes on to say Eye shall not pity....Life for life, eye for eye. 

Isn't one of the fundamental beliefs of our faith that we should turn the other cheek, as eye for an eye and everyone goes blind?

It would seem to contradict the teachings of Jesus. Of course its possible God changed his mind which is a simple explanation but I wonder if there is more to it than that?

I'm not very well versed in the scriptures so apologies if any of my questions are a bit stupid!

 

 

 

 

[irishbeast]

57 minutes ago, other one said:

Do you not know that we will judge angels?     Lucifer/Satan rebelled against God and God created something to judge them because he is a just God.  He is the one who is harmed, so should he himself judge those who have harmed him?

Interestingly, he created those who were not actually qualified to be those judges and let Lucifer/Satan himself in the form of a serpent give those the qualification to judge them.

It is said that Adam introduced sin into the world but did he really, or just introduce the knowledge of sin into mankind.   After all they were running around naked before the bite of the fruit, but realized that was not good after it.  They were sinning, but was not aware of it.

God is looking for a group of mankind that he can trust not to turn on him,  and the suffering and hardship is part of that testing.  We should welcome it and learn and get stronger with it.

I guess that would be the theodicy according to OO

Thanks for that

The bit in bold is something I have always wondered myself. The testing all seems fair game to me as per my previous post. I really should have read this as well before responding to the other. Appreciate the post :)

[Who me]

14 hours ago, irishbeast said:

So why does God want to test people?

He enables us through testing to prove our faith.

14 hours ago, irishbeast said:

Atheists bang the same old drum that God is mean minded and capricious as he wipes people out in the old testament and then puts people on earth to worship him as he is an evil and jealous dictator.

It is eas to hurl accusations, but there claims do not add up.

God has consistently  expected people to live by his rules, to worship him. 

Someone who denies that God exists  is not going to pay attention  to his requirements for living g or for worshipp and so will run down everything g about God.

[enoob57]

14 hours ago, irishbeast said:

I saw an interesting question the other day on a youtube video and the Pastor on stage gave an okay answer but thought I would release it to the wild in here. 

If God is all knowing and knows what is going to happen in the future, then why did he bother creating the serpent in the first place? You could quite easily imagine a world where there was no evil and there would be bliss and harmony. On the other hand though there is no test of free will if everyone was born "pure" for want of a better world it may seem ideal but we would not have to choose between right and wrong, which is character building and since becoming a proper Christian I now realise that.

So why does God want to test people? Atheists bang the same old drum that God is mean minded and capricious as he wipes people out in the old testament and then puts people on earth to worship him as he is an evil and jealous dictator. I don't agree with that as a sweeping statement but perhaps little nit bits of it have my spidey senses tingling!

What do you all think?

One of the most important aspects within learning is truth... truth as defined by God, Himself, as Scripture
John 17:17 (KJV)

[17] Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Why this is of such great importance is 'it is of God' by testimony of God in the great I AM statements
John 14:6 (KJV)

[6] Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

this is so profound that one must adjust every aspect of epistemological advance to Scripture also told us by God
Romans 12:2 (KJV)

[2] And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

hence the following:

 

Quote

If God is all knowing and knows what is going to happen in the future, then why did he bother creating the serpent in the first place?

So, if we want to be foundationed in God and the eternal keeping we cannot start from a false start! Which is what you have done above and all before you in this question of the begin of evil... the reality Lucifer was created perfect in all his ways...
Ezekiel 28:15 (KJV)

[15] Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

 

[irishbeast]

26 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

One of the most important aspects within learning is truth... truth as defined by God, Himself, as Scripture
John 17:17 (KJV)

[17] Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Why this is of such great importance is 'it is of God' by testimony of God in the great I AM statements
John 14:6 (KJV)

[6] Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

this is so profound that one must adjust every aspect of epistemological advance to Scripture also told us by God
Romans 12:2 (KJV)

[2] And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

 

hence the following:

 

 

So, if we want to be foundationed in God and the eternal keeping we cannot start from a false start! Which is what you have done above and all before you in this question of the begin of evil... the reality Lucifer was created perfect in all his ways...
Ezekiel 28:15 (KJV)

[15] Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

 

 

Thanks for that. 

Fascinating stuff. :)

Not trying to argue here but surely the last statement is referring to mankind ie Adam. Which still doesn't explain the serpent. He only displayed iniquity after he was faced with the serpent. Had there been no serpent he may not have eaten from the forbidden fruit? I say may not as there's no guarantee he wouldn't have? I susp[ect I am getting this wrong but will ask anyway!

IB

 

[irishbeast]

53 minutes ago, Who me said:

He enables us through testing to prove our faith.

It is eas to hurl accusations, but there claims do not add up.

God has consistently  expected people to live by his rules, to worship him. 

Someone who denies that God exists  is not going to pay attention  to his requirements for living g or for worshipp and so will run down everything g about God.

Totally agree. I think a lot of famous atheists do believe but they have made so much money from being famous Atheists that that won't change their stance. Dawkins being the prime example. He frustrates me!