Unravelling Revelation

[Deborah_]

10 hours ago, AdHoc said:

I read you with interest and in many aspects agree with you. Here is my summary of Chapter 12

I found that very interesting - an interpretation I've never come across before.

Another interpretation I've seen (a rather "oddball" one) is that John is describing astronomical information from the time of Christ's birth. The woman and the dragon are constellations (Virgo and Draco, next to each other in the sky), and a meteor shower appears to come from the dragon's tail (verse 4). The author reckoned that a comet (the "star" seen by the wise men) appears from within the constellation of Virgo to signify Christ's birth.

It hasn't changed my mind that the woman represents Israel. The "birth-pains of the Messiah" would have been the thought uppermost in the minds of John's first readers. The One who will rule the nations is a reference to Psalm 2. He must be the Messiah, because Christians are "the rest of the woman's offspring" (verse 17). I don't see why verse 17 should be describing two distinct groups of people, rather than just one.

Edited February 22 by Deborah_

[Diaste]

On 2/20/2025 at 8:18 AM, Deborah_ said:

I don't follow your reasoning here. An aorist verb indicates past, completed action. As we would say in English, "the day of wrath has come." In other words, it has already arrived - where from the verb do you get the idea that it is yet to occur?

The aorist is not a past action. The aorist has no tense. One Greek linguist described the aorist as an aerial photograph of a parade, a snapshot of a moment. From the photo one cannot tell when the parade began, when it ends, nor how long the parade will take. 

Then, one cannot have a past completed action here in Rev 6 at the 6th seal

" 17For the great day of Theirc wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?”"

and then in Rev 11 at the 7th Trumpet

18The nations were enraged, and Your wrath has come.

In English we would say, "The time has come.", "The day has come." meaning, the moment or day has arrived, not that the moment or day is a past completed action. If we did that we would miss every important day and moment. 

In both Rev 6:17 and Rev 11:18 the verb is 'erchomai' and is used thus:

"The Greek verb "erchomai" primarily means "to come" or "to go." It is used extensively in the New Testament to describe physical movement from one place to another, as well as metaphorical or spiritual coming, such as the coming of the Kingdom of God or the return of Christ. It can denote both the act of coming and the state of having arrived."

Nothing here would imply a past completed action beyond the newly completed arrival of Jesus. So the past action here is the trip from heaven to earth, not the completed wrath. 

I think what you are referring to is the imperfect verb and not the aspect of the aorist. In that case yes, wrath and everything surrounding it is complete in the past. The aorist, "The AORIST tense always conveys a single, discreet action (i.e. simple aspect). "

You can read about it here:

https://www.publiconsulting.com/wordpress/ancientgreek/chapter/52-aorist-tense/

That means the aorist in Rev 6:17 and Rev 11:18 is conveying an arrival, a snapshot, with no duration nor timestamp.

Are you saying the bowls of wrath are all poured out before the people hide themselves from the wrath they are about to endure. You're not saying that, are you?

Also, "the kings of the earth, the nobles, the commanders, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and free man hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains."

What are they hiding from if wrath is already done and over with? 

They also ask. "For the great day of Theirc wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?”"

Would they not be asking an irrelevant question since wrath is already complete? That question would have been asked at the onset of wrath, before Rev 6:17, according to your account. 

 

Edited February 22 by Diaste

[AdHoc]

22 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

Revelation 20:1-6 Isnt A Millennial Kingdom On This Earth, Dont Be Deceived

Can you find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?

2.) Physical Earthly Throne?

3.) Physical Mortal Humans?

The Above Claims (Don't Exist)

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time

2 Peter 3:8KJV

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:1-6KJV

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

You have decided to take Revelation 20 metaphorically. You have no reason to do this. Scripture neither claims it to e metaphorical nor does it produce an absurdity if taken literally. On the other hand there is every reason to take it literally.

1. The main theme of scripture is the Kingdom
2. God mad man to rule
3. God shows Abraham a physical Land which he is to inherit
4. Psalm 8 defines man's inheritance as being where the cattle are
5. Luke 19:17-19 gives men cities to rule. What is a metaphorical city to rule
6. Apostles are given Tribes of Israel to rule. What are metaphorical Tribes?
7. Romans 4:13 gives Abraham the world. What is a metaphorical world
8. Revelation 11:15 marks the kingdoms of this world the Lord's. What is a metaphorical Lord?

There is a very good reason why the Bible calls one day AS a thousand years - NOT for men, but for God. The six days of restoration were defined by the Holy Spirit as "the evening and the morning" - 24 hours sunset to sunset. But the seventh, God's REST is defined by Adam's Life - 930 years. "In the DAY IN (which) you eat you shall surely die". The Lord confirms this  calculation in Hebrews 3 and 4. In Hebrews 3 the REST is the occupation of Canaan which Israel failed to claim. But in Chapter 4 this REST, claimed by Israel's next generation is spoiled because Israel are driven out of the Land before a thousand years are up.

The day of 2nd Peter 3:8 is a DAY, not for men, but "WITH the Lord". For the One Who inhabits eternity a day and a thousand years is the SAME. But for men it is not so. So the FUTURE REST is a DAY "WITH GOD" but a thousand years WITH MEN. It is also the SEVENTH 1,000 year day for men.

The prophets of Old predicted Israel's restoration. Acts 15:14-16 shows when. "After" the Church is completed. By denying the 1,000 years, you not only rob God of His REST, but you annul the prophets.

The Lake of Fire is made for "The Devil and his angels". But no angel goes into it at the end of this age. Rather, Satan is BOUND in the Abyss. the length of his imprisonment must be defined for he is not at his final destination. Scripture gives his prison sentence as THE thousand years, because it will start and it will finish. By denying the thousand years you annul the Lord's plan to test His New Kingodm.

The reasons for a literal 1,000 years are many. To give it no substance is not warranted.

[abcdef]

5 hours ago, Deborah_ said:

I found that very interesting - an interpretation I've never come across before.

Another interpretation I've seen (a rather "oddball" one) is that John is describing astronomical information from the time of Christ's birth. The woman and the dragon are constellations (Virgo and Draco, next to each other in the sky), and a meteor shower appears to come from the dragon's tail (verse 4). The author reckoned that a comet (the "star" seen by the wise men) appears from within the constellation of Virgo to signify Christ's birth.

 

5 hours ago, Deborah_ said:

It hasn't changed my mind that the woman represents Israel. The "birth-pains of the Messiah" would have been the thought uppermost in the minds of John's first readers. The One who will rule the nations is a reference to Psalm 2. He must be the Messiah, because Christians are "the rest of the woman's offspring" (verse 17).

The Rev 12 woman is faithful Israel.

63 BC The Roman beast invades killing 1/3 of Israel, the stars.

She brings forth the deliverer, Jesus, 1 AD. The Roman beast Herod tries to kill Jesus.

Jesus is caught up to heaven, 33 AD.

The faithful woman Israel (in the gospel kingdom/church) flees into the gentile nations, 70 AD ish.

---

All you have to do now is look at history.

When  did the faithful kingdom flee into the wilderness of the gentile nations? 70 AD ish.

When did Israel return and restore Jerusalem and end the times  of the gentiles? 1967.

70 AD-1967, 1900 years. This PROVES that the 3 1/2 times and the 1260 days are symbolic and not literal.

The woman of Rev 12 is all history now and not future.

 

5 hours ago, Deborah_ said:

I don't see why verse 17 should be describing two distinct groups of people, rather than just one.

The passages in the Rev are centered on the children of Israel and not the gentile nations, except for Rome.

There are 2 groups of the children of Israel, believing and unbelieving.

The seals/trumpets timeline follows the unbelieving children of Israel. The 2 witnesses and the woman of Rev 12 follow the believing children of Israel.

--

The believing children of Israel were in the gospel kingdom that began on Pentecost. Because they were of Jewish origin they had to flee from Rome. It didn't matter to Rome in 70 AD if you were Christian or not, it only mattered if you were descended from Israel.

The gentile Christians were not in the same situation because they were not of descendant of the flesh of Israel.

When Rome attacked the Jews, the gentiles were not Jewish and did not have to flee like the Jews did.

So the Rev 12 picture is that the children of Israel that were in the gospel kingdom that began on Pentecost fled from Rome into the gentile nations.

The gentile side of the kingdom was not chased into the gentile nations because they were not Jewish children of Israel.

 

[AdHoc]

6 hours ago, Deborah_ said:

I found that very interesting - an interpretation I've never come across before.

Another interpretation I've seen (a rather "oddball" one) is that John is describing astronomical information from the time of Christ's birth. The woman and the dragon are constellations (Virgo and Draco, next to each other in the sky), and a meteor shower appears to come from the dragon's tail (verse 4). The author reckoned that a comet (the "star" seen by the wise men) appears from within the constellation of Virgo to signify Christ's birth.

It hasn't changed my mind that the woman represents Israel. The "birth-pains of the Messiah" would have been the thought uppermost in the minds of John's first readers. The One who will rule the nations is a reference to Psalm 2. He must be the Messiah, because Christians are "the rest of the woman's offspring" (verse 17). I don't see why verse 17 should be describing two distinct groups of people, rather than just one.

Fair enough. I used to think so myself. Go well.

[Locust]

do any of you claim to of the 144,000?  priest's in the kingdom

[Deborah_]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

The aorist is not a past action. The aorist has no tense. One Greek linguist described the aorist as an aerial photograph of a parade, a snapshot of a moment. From the photo one cannot tell when the parade began, when it ends, nor how long the parade will take. 

Then, one cannot have a past completed action here in Rev 6 at the 6th seal

" 17For the great day of Theirc wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?”"

and then in Rev 11 at the 7th Trumpet

18The nations were enraged, and Your wrath has come.

In English we would say, "The time has come.", "The day has come." meaning, the moment or day has arrived, not that the moment or day is a past completed action. If we did that we would miss every important day and moment. 

In both Rev 6:17 and Rev 11:18 the verb is 'erchomai' and is used thus:

"The Greek verb "erchomai" primarily means "to come" or "to go." It is used extensively in the New Testament to describe physical movement from one place to another, as well as metaphorical or spiritual coming, such as the coming of the Kingdom of God or the return of Christ. It can denote both the act of coming and the state of having arrived."

Nothing here would imply a past completed action beyond the newly completed arrival of Jesus. So the past action here is the trip from heaven to earth, not the completed wrath. 

I think what you are referring to is the imperfect verb and not the aspect of the aorist. In that case yes, wrath and everything surrounding it is complete in the past. The aorist, "The AORIST tense always conveys a single, discreet action (i.e. simple aspect). "

You can read about it here:

https://www.publiconsulting.com/wordpress/ancientgreek/chapter/52-aorist-tense/

That means the aorist in Rev 6:17 and Rev 11:18 is conveying an arrival, a snapshot, with no duration nor timestamp.

Are you saying the bowls of wrath are all poured out before the people hide themselves from the wrath they are about to endure. You're not saying that, are you?

Also, "the kings of the earth, the nobles, the commanders, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and free man hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains."

What are they hiding from if wrath is already done and over with? 

They also ask. "For the great day of Theirc wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?”"

Would they not be asking an irrelevant question since wrath is already complete? That question would have been asked at the onset of wrath, before Rev 6:17, according to your account. 

 

The link states: "The AORIST tense always conveys a single, discreet action (i.e. simple aspect). This is the more common tense for referring to action in the past." The verb in Revelation 6:17 is in the aorist tense (not the imperfect!) and therefore refers to past, completed action. In English: "the day of wrath has come".  And if something has come, then it is here now.

Now it's the day of wrath that has come, and it's the coming of the day that's complete - the wrath itself isn't over and done with but is in the process of being worked out in the course of the day, which is why the people of the earth are trying to hide from it.

"The aorist is not a past action. The aorist has no tense."

Read the article more carefully. In the indicative mood, the aorist is a tense, as is shown by the extra 'e' on the front of it (which indicates past action). It's only in the other moods (the subjunctive, the infinitive, the imperative) that this statement applies. In Rev 6:17, the verb is in the indicative, and so it does indicate past action.

[Deborah_]

The second and third visions: the two beasts come onto the stage!

Revelation 13

In the second vision (Revelation 13:1-10), the sea represents humanity as a whole: restless, chaotic, and unstable. Out of it, summoned by the dragon, comes a massive and terrifying Beast, like the four beasts of Daniel’s vision (whose characteristics it combines - including all their heads and horns) (see Daniel 7:2-7). It appears to represent worldly power, which operates according to devilish principles. The Beast’s seven heads indicate that it has many ‘incarnations’: political fashions come and go, but the same potential for tyranny underlies them all, and the overthrow of one overlord merely makes way for the next. In whatever form it takes, the Beast opposes God’s way of righteousness and claims absolute authority over human behaviour. Its final climactic manifestation will be the Antichrist, who will not only exceed all other rulers in his blasphemous arrogance, but will gain control over the whole world (II Thessalonians 2:3,4). But the true Church can never be allied with the Beast! Thus the world is divided into two camps: those who worship the Beast, and those who follow the Lamb. There will be no salvation and no future for those who follow the Beast; they are doomed to slavery and death. Christians are safe - but only if we keep ourselves separate from the world-system. We mustn’t even use the methods of the Beast! We are called not to violent rebellion, but to patient endurance.

The third vision (Revelation 13:11-18) reveals that the Beast is not alone. Most tyrannies are underpinned and legitimised by some kind of false religion or ideology, which is a Satanic beast in its own right! John’s first readers were only too well aware of the growing power and influence of the imperial cult in Asia Minor. But the second beast has taken many other forms since then - some bearing a superficial resemblance to Christianity. However, it’s a “wolf in sheep’s clothing” (Matthew 7:15), and it draws people away from God and into the secular world-system. Satan does his work of deception by copying what God does. So the first Beast will be presented as the saviour of the world, in a deliberate parody of Christ. And the second beast will perform convincing miracles that will mimic the work of the Holy Spirit. Thus the dragon and the two beasts form a kind of alternative, unholy trinity. But the only people who will be deceived will be those who have in their hearts already rejected the true God. Those who refuse to worship the Beast will be vilified and ostracised. For just as God’s people are ‘labelled’ with the seal of the Spirit (see Revelation 7:3,4), so the followers of the Beast are ‘labelled’ with the name of the Beast. The two marks are mutually exclusive, so it will be obvious whose side each person is on! Eventually, only those who conform will be able to operate in the public sphere, and so the truth will be forced into hiding. Christians therefore need wisdom - and we need it first and foremost in order to discern those occasions when the state has crossed the line and become demonic.

The Beast is not named, because it has so many manifestations, but its name can be represented by a number (under the rules of Hebrew gematria). In John’s day, 666 almost certainly stood for Nero Caesar – but it also stands for every other tyrant in the history of the world. “One of the lessons of church history is that the letters of anyone’s name can add up to 666 if you try hard enough.” (S Holmes) But in fact, “666” isn’t the clue to the puzzle but the answer! “6” is one less than ‘7” (the “perfect” number); it’s therefore appropriate to use it (in triplicate) to represent Satan’s unsuccessful attempt to rival the Triune God.

[Deborah_]

17 minutes ago, abcdef said:

The passages in the Rev are centered on the children of Israel and not the gentile nations, except for Rome.

Now that's a big assumption, and I don't share it.

[AdHoc]

9 minutes ago, abcdef said:

The Rev 12 woman is faithful Israel.

63 BC The Roman beast invades killing 1/3 of Israel, the stars.

She brings forth the deliverer, Jesus, 1 AD. The Roman beast Herod tries to kill Jesus.

Jesus is caught up to heaven, 33 AD.

The faithful woman Israel (in the gospel kingdom/church) flees into the gentile nations, 70 AD ish.

---

All you have to do now is look at history.

I respectfully place history before us.

When was Israel in heaven?
When was Israel pregnant in heaven?
When did Israel face the Dragon while pregnant?
Who is the "Remnant of her Seed"?
When dd Israel flee to a wilderness for 1260 days?
When was Israel crowned?
When was Israel clothed with Christ - "the sun of righteousness"?
When did Israel make the "lessor light" her footstool?

I think that these few make a clear case that the woman is not Israel.