Unravelling Revelation

[Dennis1209]

1 hour ago, AdHoc said:

The reader will note that you did not enter into discussion with me. I brought a cohesive argument, which could be right or wrong. You ignored it and went off at another subject. This is your right but you let my argument stand. But there is a worse effect of your failure to address the matter in the light of the whole Bible. You inadvertently make God impotent. Consider this:
God says He made the earth to remain but you say he destroys it. 

Psalm 78:69; And he built his sanctuary like high palaces, like the earth which he hath established for ever.

Psalm 104:5; Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.

Psalm 119:90; Thy faithfulness is unto all generations: thou hast established the earth, and it abideth.

1st Chronicles 16:30; Fear before him, all the earth: the world also shall be stable, that it be not moved.

Psalm 93:1; The Lord reigneth, he is clothed with majesty; the Lord is clothed with strength, wherewith he hath girded himself: the world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved.

Psalm 96:10; Say among the heathen that the Lord reigneth: the world also shall be established that it shall not be moved: he shall judge the people righteously.

Either God is omnipotent and His councils are sure, or we can pack up and jump off a cliff. God made man to subdue and rule the EARTH and its environs of sea and sky (Gen.1:26-28). God has never changed His plan. He has confirmed it over and over. "thy Kingdom COME". "Thy will be done ON EARTH ..." and so on till Revelation 11:15.

Your theory of Christ annihilating the earth is found in Sunday School books - but not the Bible. The Bible says that "God SO LOVED THE WORLD" that He gave His only begotten Son for it. He shed His blood for the earth (Rom.8) so that "it speaks better things than the blood of Abel".

You've been shown proof of God's plan. Stop denying it by saying the words of scripture don't mean what they say. Israel turned their back on the truth and God gave them over to darkness. Don't let it happen to you. You've heard good arguments. Don't let Scofield's failed marriage cloud the truth. Peter wielded a sword in Gethsemane. Don't annul his Apostleship because of this.

We cannot debate this one, as we are in total agreement. The man was made out of the earth and for the planet as imagers of God (another thread). As you rightly pointed out, God created the world to last forever, and Israel will have an everlasting land grant with its borders defined.

Genesis 17:8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

The earth and universe will be cleansed by fervent fire, dissolved, not annihilated, making way for the New Jerusalem:

2 Peter 3:10-12 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. ¹¹ Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, ¹² Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Now, if I could only make you see everything else my way. 

[AdHoc]

6 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

We cannot debate this one, as we are in total agreement. The man was made out of the earth and for the planet as imagers of God (another thread). As you rightly pointed out, God created the world to last forever, and Israel will have an everlasting land grant with its borders defined.

Genesis 17:8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

The earth and universe will be cleansed by fervent fire, dissolved, not annihilated, making way for the New Jerusalem:

2 Peter 3:10-12 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. ¹¹ Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, ¹² Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Now, if I could only make you see everything else my way. 

[truth7t7]

8 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

You have no clue about it, it seems, that tells me you really do not understand prophesy at all. And Paul wrote about it and Jesus explained it, you just can't dig it out because the whisper has spun you with a tall tale. I'm to the point its not even worthy taking on the debate, you guys just are not able to dig these truths out. It is what it is.  But you will be proven wrong. 

You will closely note that you wrote a lengthy paragraph and not one scripture was posted claiming a "pre-trib rapture", not one?

Because it doesn't exist in God's holy words

Jesus returns in fire and final judgement "Immediately After The Tribulation" dissolving this earth by fire (The End)

Luke 17:29-30KJV

29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Edited March 2 by truth7t7

[truth7t7]

7 hours ago, AdHoc said:

The reader will note that you did not enter into discussion with me. I brought a cohesive argument, which could be right or wrong. You ignored it and went off at another subject. This is your right but you let my argument stand. But there is a worse effect of your failure to address the matter in the light of the whole Bible. You inadvertently make God impotent. Consider this:
God says He made the earth to remain but you say he destroys it. 

Psalm 78:69; And he built his sanctuary like high palaces, like the earth which he hath established for ever.

Psalm 104:5; Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.

Psalm 119:90; Thy faithfulness is unto all generations: thou hast established the earth, and it abideth.

1st Chronicles 16:30; Fear before him, all the earth: the world also shall be stable, that it be not moved.

Psalm 93:1; The Lord reigneth, he is clothed with majesty; the Lord is clothed with strength, wherewith he hath girded himself: the world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved.

Psalm 96:10; Say among the heathen that the Lord reigneth: the world also shall be established that it shall not be moved: he shall judge the people righteously.

Either God is omnipotent and His councils are sure, or we can pack up and jump off a cliff. God made man to subdue and rule the EARTH and its environs of sea and sky (Gen.1:26-28). God has never changed His plan. He has confirmed it over and over. "thy Kingdom COME". "Thy will be done ON EARTH ..." and so on till Revelation 11:15.

Your theory of Christ annihilating the earth is found in Sunday School books - but not the Bible. The Bible says that "God SO LOVED THE WORLD" that He gave His only begotten Son for it. He shed His blood for the earth (Rom.8) so that "it speaks better things than the blood of Abel".

You've been shown proof of God's plan. Stop denying it by saying the words of scripture don't mean what they say. Israel turned their back on the truth and God gave them over to darkness. Don't let it happen to you. You've heard good arguments. Don't let Scofield's failed marriage cloud the truth. Peter wielded a sword in Gethsemane. Don't annul his Apostleship because of this.

Matthew 24:3KJV

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

The entire chapter of Matthew 24 is dedicated to the second coming and end of the world, it will be the generation that will be eye witnesses of the second coming

"Immediately After The Tribulation"

"They Shall See The Son Of Man Coming"

Matthew 24:29-30KJV

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Edited March 2 by truth7t7

[Locust]

34 minutes ago, truth7t7 said:

powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

powers of the heavens shall be shaken:and just who is it you make powers of the heavens to be

[AdHoc]

1 minute ago, truth7t7 said:

Matthew 24:3KJV

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

The entire chapter of Matthew 24 is dedicated to the second coming and end of the world, it will be the generation that will be eye witnesses of the second coming

"Immediately After The Tribulation"

"They Shall See The Son Of Man Coming"

Matthew 24:29-30KJV

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Okay. I will answer this.

The Lord Jesus is predicted to return to earth. Presently He sits sits at the right hand of His Father "above the highest heaven" (Eph.4:10). At some point our Lord Jesus leaves His Father's throne to receive His own. This happens in Revelation 4 in heaven. John is present. In Chapter 14 another company of men who were "firstfruits" are in the same setting. These are men who are children of God seeing as they have His name. So a loving meeting occurs in heaven with FIRSTFRUITS.

The ten Virgins go out to meet the Lord. He delays. They die  just as millions of Christians have done since the Apostles. A call goes out and they RISE and proceed to meet the Lord According to 1st Thessalonians 4 they meet the Lord in the clouds. That is, Jesus will spend some time of His downward journey hidden in the clouds. The raptured Christians face the "traveling throne of Christ" - the Bema (Rom.14:10, 2nd Cor.5:10). After judging the whole Church, which takes some time, Our Lord Jesus returns to earth FROM the clouds (Act.1:8).

All the while the Great Tribulation is raging. AS the Tribulation ends (as you correctly said), signs of God's judgment, as predicted by Joel, are seen in the sky. Then, the Son of man burst through the clouds over mount Olives and saves Jerusalem. The Jews see Who has come through the clouds and mourn. The ensuing battle and ensuing judgment causes havoc on earth.

Now, consider this, every verse you produced is fulfilled ACCURATELY - and I mean accurately. Look at your verses. Not one says anything about destruction of the earth. It is judged and scarred, but not obliterated. The Lord gets His own throne - the "throne of His glory" (Matt.25:31). The Virgins of Chapter 14 are raptured to heaven. They are first-ripe. They have the wedding garment, They are perfected before the Lord.

Then the Lord halts His downward journey to judge the General Harvest of Christians IN THE AIR (1st Thess.4). Then, when millions of Christians have been judged, the Lord leaves the clouds to deal with Israel and the NATIONS. His throne is set up in Jerusalem and He judges the NATION of Israel and "ALL Nations".

This scenario fulfills all your claims except 2nd Peter. But if you were to accept that Revelation 20 speaks of a "DAY" IN WHICH the Lord fights Armageddon, subdues His enemies and subdues death, all you would have to do is define that "DAY" as being "The DAY of God" and that would mean it was 1,000 years long. The position  you hold would fit perfectly if you took the "DAY" of the Lord to mean 1,000 years.

I'm sure you will consider this. Take your time.

[Dennis1209]

36 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Okay. I will answer this.

The Lord Jesus is predicted to return to earth. Presently He sits sits at the right hand of His Father "above the highest heaven" (Eph.4:10). At some point our Lord Jesus leaves His Father's throne to receive His own. This happens in Revelation 4 in heaven. John is present. In Chapter 14 another company of men who were "firstfruits" are in the same setting. These are men who are children of God seeing as they have His name. So a loving meeting occurs in heaven with FIRSTFRUITS.

The ten Virgins go out to meet the Lord. He delays. They die  just as millions of Christians have done since the Apostles. A call goes out and they RISE and proceed to meet the Lord According to 1st Thessalonians 4 they meet the Lord in the clouds. That is, Jesus will spend some time of His downward journey hidden in the clouds. The raptured Christians face the "traveling throne of Christ" - the Bema (Rom.14:10, 2nd Cor.5:10). After judging the whole Church, which takes some time, Our Lord Jesus returns to earth FROM the clouds (Act.1:8).

All the while the Great Tribulation is raging. AS the Tribulation ends (as you correctly said), signs of God's judgment, as predicted by Joel, are seen in the sky. Then, the Son of man burst through the clouds over mount Olives and saves Jerusalem. The Jews see Who has come through the clouds and mourn. The ensuing battle and ensuing judgment causes havoc on earth.

Now, consider this, every verse you produced is fulfilled ACCURATELY - and I mean accurately. Look at your verses. Not one says anything about destruction of the earth. It is judged and scarred, but not obliterated. The Lord gets His own throne - the "throne of His glory" (Matt.25:31). The Virgins of Chapter 14 are raptured to heaven. They are first-ripe. They have the wedding garment, They are perfected before the Lord.

Then the Lord halts His downward journey to judge the General Harvest of Christians IN THE AIR (1st Thess.4). Then, when millions of Christians have been judged, the Lord leaves the clouds to deal with Israel and the NATIONS. His throne is set up in Jerusalem and He judges the NATION of Israel and "ALL Nations".

This scenario fulfills all your claims except 2nd Peter. But if you were to accept that Revelation 20 speaks of a "DAY" IN WHICH the Lord fights Armageddon, subdues His enemies and subdues death, all you would have to do is define that "DAY" as being "The DAY of God" and that would mean it was 1,000 years long. The position  you hold would fit perfectly if you took the "DAY" of the Lord to mean 1,000 years.

I'm sure you will consider this. Take your time.

2 Peter 3:8 (KJV) But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

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On 2/27/2025 at 7:02 PM, truth7t7 said:

The (Two Witnesses) Revelation 11:3-12 Will Be Literal Prophets Returned, In Literal Physical Bodies

I will agree that the 2 witnesses are human and on material earth.

They are not 2 individual people. They are the faithful children of Israel in the gospel kingdom. 

 

On 2/27/2025 at 7:02 PM, truth7t7 said:

The (Two Witnesses) will be literal prophets returned,

So the 2 prophets lived, then died, then are resurrected or reborn, and then die again, and then are resurrected again.

Heb 9:27

 

On 2/27/2025 at 7:02 PM, truth7t7 said:

that bring literal plagues upon this literal earth,

The plagues are all related to the power of the scriptures (OT) to point out and convict people of sin.

 

On 2/27/2025 at 7:02 PM, truth7t7 said:

they have physical bodies that die, that lay in a literal street, as a literal world watches in celebration of their deaths

This event of dying in Jerusalem, laying in the streets, as the world watches, is about to happen in front of us shortly.

The events described take place in this present day restored Jerusalem.

 

On 2/27/2025 at 7:02 PM, truth7t7 said:

You will closely note below, the two olive branches and golden pipes represent that seen in Revelation 5:8 & 15:5-8 below, the 7 golden (vials/pipes) in last plagues will be emptied upon the world through the (Two Witnesses) who have all power over the literal plagues seen in the Revelation

The vials/bowls of Rev 16 are poured out specifically by angels.

 

On 2/27/2025 at 7:02 PM, truth7t7 said:

You will closely note these two anointed ones empty the golden oil out of "Themselves"

The "Golden Oil" represents the "Golden Vials" full of the seven last plagues

 

On 2/27/2025 at 7:02 PM, truth7t7 said:

Zechariah 4:11-14KJV

11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?

In Rev 1:20, The 7  candlesticks are seven congregations of the gospel kingdom.

In symbolism, what or who would the 2 olive trees be? Israel. 

Not just 2 people, but a group of people through whom the river of life flows out to creation through the scriptures, the Law of Moses and the Prophets.

 

On 2/27/2025 at 7:02 PM, truth7t7 said:

12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?

13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.

 

On 2/27/2025 at 7:02 PM, truth7t7 said:

14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

The 2 witnesses are witnessing about Jesus. The scriptures (OT) witness of Jesus, Jn 5:39.

Lk 24:27, Jesus specifically says Moses and the prophets speak about Him.

Who carries the witness of the OT prophets? Israel.

 

On 2/27/2025 at 7:02 PM, truth7t7 said:

Revelation 5:8KJV

8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Revelation 15:5-8KJV

5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:

6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.

7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

You will closely note that the (Two Witnesses) stand before God of the earth in verse 4 below, also seen in Zechariah 4:14 above

You will closely note that the (Two Witnesses) have literal power over the literal plagues upon the world, they have physical bodies that die, and lay in a literal street, as a  literal world watches in celebration

Revelation 11:3-12KJV

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

 

On 2/27/2025 at 7:02 PM, truth7t7 said:

5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Thee plagues and power of the 2 witness are related to the Scriptures (OT).

The scriptures witness of Jesus/God and the path to eternal life.

If Israel withholds the scriptures, then the blessings of God that lead to eternal life are darkened or not available. So the power of God's blessings and eternal life are in the hands of Israel to shine or hide the path.

The fire is preaching the scriptures. The rain is God's blessings on the soul to keep  it alive to God. The waters to blood show the disruption of the water/river of life from God's throne.

 

On 2/27/2025 at 7:02 PM, truth7t7 said:

7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

The beast nation is Rome. In 1929 the beast returned from the abyss to Rome to sit on the seat of the beast again. The same place as 2000 years ago.

The dragon, beast, and false prophet are just the image empire now. Rome must resort to deceiving the kings of the east from across the Euphrates to destroy restored Jerusalem, which has ALREADY happened.

 

On 2/27/2025 at 7:02 PM, truth7t7 said:

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

This event v 8, will be happening within a short amount of time. Possibly months or a year or so.

 

On 2/27/2025 at 7:02 PM, truth7t7 said:

9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

The sign of them dead in the streets will be obvious to all. We will see it on TV.

 

On 2/27/2025 at 7:02 PM, truth7t7 said:

10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

The world of Islam and non believers will rejoice.

 

On 2/27/2025 at 7:02 PM, truth7t7 said:

11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Since the seals/trumpets timeline is parallel to the 2 witnesses timeline, it means that the 2 witness are resurrected at the 7th trumpet.

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On 2/27/2025 at 7:05 PM, truth7t7 said:

God's "Two Witnesses" Rule The World During The Future Great Tribulation

The 2 witnesses do not rule the world.

They can't even return to Jerusalem until the gentile trampling is finished Rev 11:2-3.

 

On 2/27/2025 at 7:05 PM, truth7t7 said:

Many put the future (Man Of Sin) (The Beast) as the ruler of earth

 The Roman beast nation does not rule the planet.

It only rules over the "earth" of Israel.

The Roman beast nation cannot reach Israel when they flee into the gentile nations, Rev 12.

That means he does not control the gentile nations.

 

On 2/27/2025 at 7:05 PM, truth7t7 said:

 

 

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On 2/27/2025 at 8:31 PM, Locust said:

here again there is a wanting need to think its just two people . the book revelation is  written in the form of signs. any thing that can be alluded to is done symbolically . Rev 1:1 says as much. 

You didn't answer even one question I asked you.

I'm not going to try and guess what you believe, you will have to tell me.