Works/Fruit?

[AllforJesustheLord]

I just wanted to say, it seems the orthodox christians, are pretty good people. They understand some major parts of doctrine.

[Omega]

I just wanted to say, it seems the orthodox christians, are pretty good people. They understand some major parts of doctrine.

Hello AllforJesustheLord!

Don't want to go off on a tangent but that is a Very interesting comment you made above and I don't want to start a whole new topic , However I Believe that only a few Christians consider themselves Good if not any. A Jesus Himself stated: And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. Matthew 19:17

Are we better than Jesus? Of course not, Christians Strive to achieve wholeness and are made whole or like unto Christ when He appears the Second time. Christians may have Good Qualities such as fruits of the Spirits, but only God Himself is considered Good. Just in case someone asks why Jesus as God stated that He Himself is not Good I will explain in Here. Jesus actually never mentioned that He was not Good, He was clarifying that a Mere Human being does not have the Right to call someone Good because He himself is not perfect. Only God is able to make such a call and that call is pretty well made to God alone because God is the only one who is Good.

{I am} the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. {I am} the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. John 10:11,14

Sorry and I apologize if this seemed offensive in any way and I also apologize for going off-topic.

Your Brother in Christ,

God Bless! :hug: :il:

[AllforJesustheLord]

Charlie:

Orthodox Christian, in the past year I've been studying up on the RCC and the Eastern Orthodox Church. I'm facinated by both.

I am glad that you are interested in the ancient faith. But the thing about Catholics is that they hide a lot of information about themselves. For example, they were excommunicated from the Church (which was Orthodox, and not Catholic as they claim). And that was because they wanted to bring changes to the Faith. The Faith runs down from the Apostles, and you don't change anything in the Truth, or else it would be a lie. And from that moment they kept ever changing and moving farther and farther away from the original. Another funny thing is that once they had a female Pope... I wouldn't go into embarrassing details, but that's what they also hide. Just for a note

I've gotten a few EO books to read and I must say your approach to scripture seems so spiritual; it's facinating. I sometimes go to the EO board at beliefnet and just read the threads there. Everybody is so calm even when people disagree, or try to "troll" them. I feel happy when I've read there. I hope that you will post here more often on a lot of different topics. With your particular Christian worldview I would love to read your opinions on a number of things.

Well, the Orthodox Church is just called the Orthodox Church, there is no "West" Orthodox Church or "East" Orthodox Church. But there is another name of it -- Eastern Christianity or Eastern Churches -- that people oftenly use.

There are also a lot of publishers here in America that sell books in English, translations from Russian, Greek and other languages. I think you would be interested in the saints, Orthodox saints, not Catholics because... well, I do not advise to read their books. But Orthodox wisdom is what you are looking for. The saints have all different kinds of explanations of life, the Scripture and spiritual matters. I am not a saint, and I may be in error in some issues, so, don't rely on my words too much You might try to search for Seraphim Rose -- he was an american convert, a very gifted person (not a saint, though). Other names are Seraphim of Sarov (XIX cent.), abba Dorotheos (the passage above is from his teachings -- 10th cent.), st. Basil the Great (IV cent.), st. John Crysostom (st. Basil's friend, IV cent.), and others. Just put in a search engine one of those names and you'll get an Orhtodox library (or a shop) with other saints.

I have too many people disagreeing with me, and that discourages me to bring the Ancient Church to the light and show everybody what it is like. But people like you bring joy to my heart and strength to not give up. Thank you for your encouragment! :il:

There is another Orthodox forum that I am on now -- Christian Forums/The Ancient Way -- Orthodox Church. I am -- Happy Orthodox (not much of creative thinking here ). Come over and ask whatever you want

I have a quick question on baby baptism. I read that the EO performs immersion baptisms, and baptizes babies. How do you immerse them? Does the priest hold the babie's nose or does he just immerse the body and not the head? Sorry to ask such a stupid question but I've been wondering about it; how it's done.

No, I understand, I had stupid questions too, and that's totally normal Let me tell you one thing: when a priest blesses the baptism water, it worms up by itself. Really, truly, warms up. Therefore you don't get a cold if you are being baptised in a cold place. So, the question about the babies kinda dropps when you realise that Orthodox baptism is a miracle, and God takes care of things so that you don't drown or freeze Babies are immerged as everybody else. Nobody got hurt, because we baptise babies quite often. If you have other questions, you can send me an e-mail, or a private message, or post it in a forum

Suzanne:

The above was the essence of what I was getting at. With particular focus on the passages in Titus 2:11. This sums up the outcome of the power of grace working in us. It changes our outward and inward behavior, to the point that we become peculiar in action/life, in comparison to the world around us.

Well, that was just an excuse to bring up my point of how to get that righteousness. Kidding. I just feel the thirst for knowledge in Protestants, a huge hole of spiritual knowledge that you are trying to fill up really hard with all kinds of stuff. I think that isn't working because I compare Orhtodox to Protestant posts in forums and I notice that Orthodox are the ones that found the peace, and Protestants are still in agony of finding out what the Truth is. I sence that, because I myself was in search untill I found what my soul wanted. Orthodoxy filled the spiritual hole in my, but it turned out that Orthodoxy still has a lot more to teach, and I am too sinful to comprehend it. So, the search is over, but the work is going on.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that...

See, even the Apostle says -- grace teaches! It is not something that comes and automatically works on you like a dust busters crew in a dirty house. It teaches, and you follow the instructions.

AllforJesus:

Well I know there are many different orthodox churchs, and I do not know the differences they have, and I am interested in understanding. So you say they are all the same, in what ways, and in what ways are they different. Is it the languages which are the main difference?

If you read the 7 Ecumenical Councils, you'll see the basic belief structure and rules. It is theology, it is the main structure of worship services, practical rules, etc. The 6th is the one that explains things about Christian life and answers the most important questions. And in those things we are all alike. Almost anything beyond that is allowed to have variations. For example, how to cross yourself is same in all the Churches, but some may have an additional move or something like that. Language and heritage particular to that country (the saints of that country) is what is different. The services, the theology, everything else is the same. If you walk from a Russian Church into a Greek one, you won't be lost even if the languages are different. Although there are little differences in decorations. American Orthodoxy (OCA) one-to-one copies Russian Orthodoxy because it came from Russia, I believe, sometime in the 1800s when a Russian saint went into Alaska from Siberia and converted Alaskan natives. He is Saint Herman, very famous in American Orthodoxy. If you go to Alaska, you get to know what an Orthodox saint means. Orthodox saints radiate perfume from Heaven, a sweet aroma, even after death, some don't, though. And their relics extract holy mirrh, or blessed oil that cures. Sometimes that oil comes in great quantities. Many people get healed Many convert right away

I do want you to know in Greek Grace means favor

Have you asked a Greek what grace means?

by grace through faith, and that not of yourselves, not of works so that no one can boast

Yes, we are saved by the mercy of God. No works alone can save anybody automatically. I see you did not understand the Orthodox teaching about works. And let me tell you this: everything good requires work. Even your faith in its hardest times needs work. Everything. If you don't work on yourself you are going to fall into sin. You have to watch yourself every minute in order to be worthy to be called a Christian. Thoughts come, temptations come, pictures, dreems, that's all devil. And you gotta work to keep them out and yourself undistructed. Every step you make as a Christian, if you don't do any effort, you will fall into sin. And many people are mistaken by this "no works" slogan because as soon as temptation comes, a real serious temptation, they lose their faith because they don't know how to fight their thoughts. A man is not perfect, and he is a subject to sin, and I am really upset when a Protestant sins and is being kicked out of his church which members say: "well, that's your problem that you do not have the true faith and a true conversion." They throw stones at the one poor guy who was just being a weak human, but they themselves cannot honestly admit that they are without sins. That just makes me angry at those kind of churches. And only if that guy makes it to Orthodoxy, the church that consists of sinful members, and he becomes just a part of that community of fallible people. Oh, I am glad that I am here in my church and nobody gives me that look every time I say something I shouldn't say. I don't know how you folks stand it yourselves.

The reason the Apostle said about "no salvation by works so that nobody could boast" is just that people did not boast. There are people who are just too legalistic. They think that if they do something they get a reward for it. Many still believe that there you buy your well-being for being good. No, life is not like that. And it's pretty cruel to some of those folks who work as hard as they can. No, salvation is spiritual and not automatic. There are no tickets to Heaven sold out. You are saved when you love God. And to love God means to follow His commandments, love His law because it is beautiful as He is, and love His creation because He loves it. You gotta read the Gospels as a whole, and not by peices. And remember: it is Orthodox Church that composed the Bible! The Bible did not fall from the sky, but there was a great job done in putting the most important Christians texts together, because there were some of heretic works circling around. And the New Testament was not composed until the 4 century, and was not intended until that time.

So we must live in faith, obedience to God to have Faith in Him

Somehow I understood that Protestants and other new churches born in America teach that if you just believe that the information about some guy being nailed to a cross 2 thousand years ago is indeed true, you have a place in Heaven reserved for you. So, where does the "obedience" part fit in here?

We grow by God helping us to grow, we do work, but God is the One who really does the work, we can not save ourselves, we need Jesus Christ to be in us for us to be saved.

Well, the first part is exactly what Orthodoxy teaches -- salvation is done by God, by His mercy, it is not automatic. But you need to work on yourself in order to be worthy of salvation. One saint said that what you have here on earth, the condition of your soul right now, you will also have after death. Nothing is added, nothing is taken away. You are the same. So, think of this -- are you now worthy of entering the kingdom of Heaven and walk among the angels and stand before God? I don't. So I need God to help me climb the spiritual ladder. Didn't you read that example about the stone that I gave in my previous post? The person's part is just to believe and not be afraid of spiritual work, but just do it. And then God helps. When you try to do things for yourself (like the Apostle was talking about that people shouldn't boast -- when it is not your work, but God's, you wouldn't boast of it, right? You would thank God), nothing works out. But some Protestants just look like they stand besides that rock and wait when God will lift it for them. No, you gotta have guts to start (meaning, you gotta have enough love for God to start), and God will do the rest. That's Orthodoxy here.

When you say you believe what the apostles taught, that means in your case you believe what they taught, plus you choose to believe they taught what is taught by people after them also, in other words the many beliefs which are taught in your church you teach not only the bible, but the traditions in that church, and the beliefs of other people commenting on there beliefs about the scriptures, correct.?

You forget the power of God. God preserved Orthodoxy exactly as it was 2 000 years ago. That is why we have saints from all of times throughout that period. And they all talk about the same thing.

You see, Orhtodoxy is different from Protestant (and other) churches in that here nobody has his own opinion that might be different from others. We simply believe the Truth that is given to us and it is the most precious thing we have. We don't interpret anything because all of explanations came from the Apostles. And it's been like this from the times when the Apostles preached.

Orthodoxy is like an organism and it is the same throughout, there is the same blood type, the same DNA, and it is all harmonically built and interconnected. If something alien comes (a new thought, a herecy), that object is thorouly examined and compared to the Scripture and to the original teaching. If it directly contradicts one or both, it's rejected. You don't get creative here, unless you are filled with the Holy Spirit so much that you start to shine and radiate perfume. Men are fallible and they can be in error if they follow their fallible mind, which in turn under influence of devils. When you are purified of your damaged nature, then you can get the information from the Holy Spirit directly, and then people would listen to you. More so that the Holy Spirit never contradicts the Bible or two people who get the Holy Spirit never contradict each other. So, the organism of Orthodoxy is nurished and maintained by the Holy Spirit, and although some of its members might be wrong in some things, but the organism as a whole never goes into error, or else its head -- Jesus Christ -- would have to be in error, too, which is rediculous. New doctrines never come, but new "wisdom" is greately accepted. We are very, very sencitive to new ideas in teaching, and we reject them if they contradict what we were taught before. The Truth is more dear to us than anything else, it is as dear as God Himself because God is the Truth.

Jesus Christ is holding His promice that He wouldn't leave His Church untill the end of days.

You forget the power of God. God preserved Orthodoxy exactly as it was 2 000 years ago. That is why we have saints from all of times throughout that period. And they all talk about the same thing.

My concern is your church receives things which are not only the bible, but also limits God by using the understanding of people which can be good, or might be good, but also they stop you from understanding more of what The Holy Spirit is saying, so when you say you believe the 7 Ecuminical counsels what are those. I would like to know what they are, please let me know. You see when I hear you say apostles teachings I know you get scripture from scripture, but I am curious what you mean by getting things from the original apostles, do you mean you believe the people after then, understood what the original apostles, all the New Testament teaching were saying perfectly, maybe some of them did not understand totally. Please tell me what the 7 Ecuminical counsels are. I am not trying to put you down I do love you, and desire God would bless you, by Jesus Christ.

You see when I look at the scriptures I see people do have to make choices, and do different things, but even for them to do different things, they are not made to do different things, unless God grants them to believe, meaning His favor helps people to believe, and follow Him, meaning without God choosing to have mercy upon someone they would not be able to do things which are righteous. When God has mercy upon someone they they believe, and follow Him.

[tsth]

Since we shall be judged according to our works, we stand under the command to do the 'good work'.  The fears we have about doing good works as a pretext to justify our evil works is a notion which certainly is foreign to scripture.  Scripture never sets faith over against the good work such that the good work is seen as destroying faith; rather, it is the evil work which hinders and destroys faith.  Grace and deeds belong together.  There is no faith without the good work, just as there is no good work without faith.  Christians need to do good works for the sake of their salvation.  For whoever is found doing evil works shall not see the kingdom of God.  Thus the good work is the goal of being a Christian.  In this life, there is only one thing of real importance, namely, how we can give a good account of ourselves in the last judgment.  And because all persons will be judged according to their works, it is of utmost importance that Christians be prepared to do good works.  Thus our becoming a new creation in Christ also has as its goal the doing of good works.  "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God--not the result of works, so that no one may boast.  For we are God's work, created in Christ Jesus for good works, for which God has prepared us beforehand to be our way of life" (Eph. 2:8-10; cf. 2 Tim. 2:21; 3:17; Titus 1:16;3:1,8,14).  On this point everything is crystal clear.  Our goal is to do the good work which God demands.  God's law remains in effect and must be fulfilled (Rom. 3:31).  This is being accomplished through the good work.  However, there is but one work which deserves that designation, namely, God's work in Christ Jesus.  We have been saved throu God's own work in Christ, rather than through our own works.  Thus we never derive any glory from our own works, for we ourselves are God's work.  But this is why we have become a new creation in Christ:  to attain good works in him.

All our good works are nothing but God's own good works for which God has already prepared us.  Thus good works are, on the one hand, demanded of us for the sake of our salvation; and they are, on the other hand, always only the works which God is doing in us.  They are God's gift.  It is indeed we who are required to persist in carrying out good works; it is we who are called to good works at any moment.  And yet we know that with our good works we could never stand fast before God's judgment, but that it is Christ alone and his work to which we cling in faith.  Thus to those who are in Christ Jesus, God promises good works with which they will be able to stand fast on that day; God promises to preserve them in the state of sanctification unto the day of Jesus.  All we can do is to trust in this promise of God because it is God's word, and then go and persist in carrying out the good works for which God has prepared us.

Dear S&P,

The above portion of what you posted was the VERY ESSENCE of the intent of my original post. That sums it up for me. Thanks for posting it.

:il:

In His Love,

Suzanne

[Guest Orthodox Christian]

AllforJesus: I will answer you tomorrow If God wills

May God be with you and guide you.

[Guest Orthodox Christian]

AllforJesus:

My concern is your church receives things which are not only the bible, but also limits God by using the understanding of people which can be good, or might be good, but also they stop you from understanding more of what The Holy Spirit is saying

Yes, I understand, that is the hardest part to understand for Protestants -- we believe in things other than the Bible. But you see, when Christ left, He gave His Holy Spirit to the Apostles and started the Church. The Apostles were running around different churches establishing new communities and teaching them Faith. They taught them everything -- theology, worthip, rules, etc. Everything kinda layed over Jeudaic worship practice with some changes. So, for several hundred years they lived without any New Testament, their knowledge came from some scattered apostolic letters and writings of the disciples of the Apostles. The life wasn't limited to the Bible. Then, when some false apostles came and wrote false Gospels and Epistles, and people had to compose the true ones into a single collection, a set, when things got really dangerous. So, they did make the Bible, and they choose the right letters for themselves. See, there is that thing called Tradition (big T) that runs from the Apostles, it was learned by people for many years, and some of the components of that Tradition was written down. So, the New Testament was built according to the Tradition, and that was the only way to check which peices belonged to the Bible and which didn't. So, the New Testament is actually a product of the Holy Tradition. And we rely on the Bible as we rely on the Tradition. It never changes, that's why it's a tradition.

Another keeper of the Church is Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit in the Saints instructs them in mysteries about God and Truth, what is right and what is wrong, and what is true and what is false -- they know everything. They serve like the keepers of the purity of the Church, they warn those people that introduce new ideas or are being led astray. They are still not as trusted as the Holy Tradition, so if they say something that contradicts the Tradition or even the Bible (which is honored not less than in Protestanism, only without counting it as being God by itself), they are outta the church.

After the Bible was composed, the herecies did not stop, and if then they couldn't get people with their false letters, they used the collection of the composed true letters to twist the message of the New Testament and bring their evil heresies into the Faith (which are basically changes). There were many famous heretics (they weren't burned, by the way, just rejected ), who tried to lead people away, or just didn't see the Truth in the Tradition and created their own "truth" to please their pride. People had to do something with those, like with the New Testament collection, they needed to determine what the Teaching is teaching, and what the original Tradition is about. So, then came the Ecumenical Councils, which had the same purpose the composing of the Bible had -- to determine which is true and which is false, get the true together and reject the false. And again the Tradition was used to compare their new teachings to it, as well as the Bible. The Bible is not self-suficient, as well as the Tradition, but they are tied together. You cannot interpret the Bible without the knowledge of the Tradition.

On the Ecumenical Councils, seven of them, many people of high educated clergy, theologians and saints gathered to explicitly define what they believe. That wasn't easy, some of the Councils took several days. The term "Orthodoxy" ("true faith" or "true worship") came out to lable the true Faith, and different heresies had their lables. It was for convenience, and at that time it was really a technical term, because Christianity was only one kind, except for some few heretics. Ecumenical Councils had all of the Patriarchs of independent patriarchates, or archdioceses. They were all in communion and all in agreement. Patriarchs were all equal and they all took advice from each other. There were small Councils within the archdioceses, but those 7 were Ecumenical, meaning common, where all of the archdioceses participated, including Rome that was the part of the Orthodox Church. But Roman Pope always sent his representatives to the Councils, because it was too far for him to travel all the way to the Middle East. To tell you secret, when some of the Popes got to a Council, a couple of them were mislead by the heretics and led astray untill the Councils expressed the Truth.

That is where the Nicean Creed was composed -- like the Bible was composed (actually, on a council, too, but not in an Ecumenical). We Orthodox Christians call it the Symbol of Faith. It's a summary of the beliefs. And they are apostolic.

Some people mistakingly think that the Ecumenical Councils introduced, started new doctrines, like Catholic councils do. That is not the case in the Orthodox Church. Ecumenical Counsils made the doctrines that were believed before for centuries explicit and summarised.

I am curious what you mean by getting things from the original apostles, do you mean you believe the people after then, understood what the original apostles, all the New Testament teaching were saying perfectly, maybe some of them did not understand totally

Things were different in the old days than there are now. In the modern churches, you convert and the next week they go to missions. You might get some education for a few years in a seminary, in the best case, and go preach.

But in those days people weren't getting baptised for years after they convert and believe in Christ. They learn many things, they live through them, they are instructed by the Holy Spirit. It is not dry academic knowledge like "where the heaven is geographically located", bit spiritual like "what is the essence of God". The Holy Spirit shows them God, and they contemplate Him, not in His absolute fulness, but as much as they can fit in their limited heart. Orthodoxy is not academic like Protestanism, but spiritual. You learn stuff by your heart, and not through your fallible mind. The heart is the sensor of Truth. It doesn't mean we don't use brains in Orthodoxy, though. The apologetics is really strong.

So, people learn to live in Christ learning more and more every day. When they really grow old, they ackwire the knowledge in a great measure, in their hearts and in their minds. So, then they start to teach others.

The early Church was also full of saints -- those who are real Christians and who do not sin at all (much less boast about that) -- who got the grace of the Holy Spirit in a great measure which instructs them in things. They fortell the future, of single individuals or whole countries, heal, preach, convert pegans to Christianity, walk upon the water, shine and emit perfume, and all that kind of stuff Jesus did when He was on earth. And the Holy Spirit does not contradict Himself, but teaches the same Truth to everybody. It is really interesting to read their works and see that they all are in the same soul and in the same mind, and the source of unity is the Holy Spirit. Saints were the pillars of the Church, of its teaching. Like the Apostles, they knew the Truth and were writing their own works being enlightened by God. Those works still guide us through life and are very helpful in fighting with sin and heresies.

Orthodoxy is very rich and there is many things to learn, but as soon as you get to know the core of it, the base, the "manner" of it's teaching (in a several years), then, unless you are really stupid, you can guess the other teachings about other things. It's amazing! It's complex, and yet undivided, and everything is interconnected. It cannot happen that you are wrong in one thing in the original teaching, and yet be right in the rest of it. If you disagree in one thing, you must disagree with the whole teaching, if you agree with one thing, you agree with the whole. This is my own observation recently And the more I learn the stronger is that view.

You see when I look at the scriptures I see people do have to make choices, and do different things, but even for them to do different things, they are not made to do different things, unless God grants them to believe, meaning His favor helps people to believe, and follow Him, meaning without God choosing to have mercy upon someone they would not be able to do things which are righteous. When God has mercy upon someone they they believe, and follow Him.

Exactly. But the real life spiritual experience of that "when God has mercy, people believe and follow Him" includes many more details You don't just simply "follow" Him, you do fall, and do get up and "follow" again.

Hope this helps. God bless you!

[AllforJesustheLord]

Well let us discuss the 7 Ecumenical Counsels. I have strarted a thread, the first Ecumenical Counsel, I have copied down, to start out, then later I will put in the 2nd, and 3rd, and 4th, and etc.. Please post your thoughts dear person.

[Guest Orthodox Christian]

AllforJesus: where did you start it?

[AnotherTraveler]

I think that fruit of the spirit will manifest as works, so they are linked, though one proceeds from the other.

[tsth]

We cannot separate belief from works, can we? Don't they go hand in hand. Because even if a person cannot be saved by works, they must believe to do the True Works, lest they would not do them, unless they believed what they heard?

Luke 3:1 Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judea, Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, his brother Philip tetrarch of Iturea and the region of Trachonitis, and Lysanias tetrarch of Abilene, 2 while Annas and Caiaphas were high priests, the word of God came to John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness. 3 And he went into all the region around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins, 4 as it is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet, saying: "The voice of one crying in the wilderness: 'Prepare the way of the Lord; Make His paths straight. 5 Every valley shall be filled And every mountain and hill brought low; The crooked places shall be made straight And the rough ways smooth; 6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.' " 7 Then he said to the multitudes that came out to be baptized by him, "Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. 9 And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire." 10 So the people asked him, saying, "What shall we do then?" 11 He answered and said to them, "He who has two tunics, let him give to him who has none; and he who has food, let him do likewise." 12 Then tax collectors also came to be baptized, and said to him, "Teacher, what shall we do?" 13 And he said to them, "Collect no more than what is appointed for you." 14 Likewise the soldiers asked him, saying, "And what shall we do?" So he said to them, "Do not intimidate anyone or accuse falsely, and be content with your wages."

Genesis 22:15 Then the Angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time out of heaven, 16 and said: "By Myself I have sworn, says the Lord, because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son-- 17 blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heaven and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your descendants shall possess the gate of their enemies. 18 In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice."

Genesis 26:4 And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; 5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws."

Galatians 3:2 Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have you suffered so many things in vain--if indeed it was in vain? 5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?--

Did Abraham do what he did because of the law, or because he "believed" what he heard? He had to act on what he heard, in order to truly believe. (This is the essence of what we try to twist out of context on "works") WORKS ARE ESSENTIAL TO BELIEF, IF WE BELIEVE?

The same could be said for Naaman in the OT, but spoken of in the NT (See Luke 4:27), the Lord blessed him and healed him because of the outcome of his belief, his work of going to the water to be cleansed.

Do we misunderstand works/fruit?

In His Love,

Suzanne