the Resurrection

[Retrobyter]

17 hours ago, Anne2 said:

The feasts could not be kept when Rome came into power. Even Rabbinic Judaism makes no claim to actually keeping the law. They are keeping traditions, as sacraments...... Why would the Christian Church do that? 

Shalom, @Anne2.

They DID do that with their own liturgies and rituals! Instead of meetings for prayer en masse, they FORCED people to come and pray in a particular way at the "Mass," much as the Muslims have their own calls to prayer. It took time, but they ended up doing the SAME THING! 

They did that to retain control over the people. They didn't want them to "slip" back into Messianic Judaism prevalent in the eartly "church" ("ἡ ἐκκλησία κυριακὸν") in which "all that believed were together, and had all things common." (Acts 2:44). It would diminish their authority over the "Church" with a capital "C" (as though there was only ONE church, when the Bible clearly uses the plural, "churches"). They were ruling the people with a HIERARCHY of leaders, and they didn't want to lose their "laity," who were unwittingly supporting and funding their greed. The Catholics would argue against me, but the word "catholic" MEANS "universal." But, there's no such thing in Scripture as a "universal Church" until we're all called up into the air.

17 hours ago, Anne2 said:

Easter being Pascha, as the orthodox Churches (Catholics) keep to this day. So yes they did distinguish between the Rabbinic seder and the seder of our Lord Jesus.

Did you know that the Aramaic word "Pascha" comes from "Pesach," the Hebrew word for "Passover?"

17 hours ago, Anne2 said:

The  liturgical service Christ gave us was bread and wine to memorialize his sacrifice, as our high priest

I wonder..... Did you know that "Yeast is essential for fermentation, as it converts the natural sugars in grape juice into alcohol"? (Wikipedia - Winemaking). Thus, the "juice of the grapes" was GRAPE JUICE, "new wine," because this was the season of UNLEAVENED BREAD and ALL leavening agents, such as yeast, had to be removed from their houses! And, of course, the bread also had to be unleavened, which makes it look more like an unsalted cracker. Thus, the phrase "breaking of bread" was used.These were the elements that our Lord Yeeshuwa` used at the first "Lord's Supper (κυριακὸν δεῖπνον)" or Seder. (See 1 Corinthians 11:20.)

How many Christian churches still pracitce THAT? Leaven was removed since the beginning as a SYMBOL of haste and the purity of the lambs used just as our Lord when our Lord would be Sacrificed as haKeves 'Elohiym (the Lamb of God) upon the cross.

17 hours ago, Anne2 said:

I find this odd in that you do not seem to think The lord's supper is a Passover at all? While saying it does not need to be either.....

Quite the opposite! I DO believe that the "Lord's Supper" was a Passover seder! What made you think otherwisie?

17 hours ago, Anne2 said:

Adding Rabbinic ritual (sacrament, liturgy) does not make it more excellent, more real! Nor does the absence of the same make it less than fully a Passover Christ gave us. True in all Christian Churches. Messianic Passovers I have attended did not say it was a replacement. Rather it was minimized, or diminished with a very brief mention.

It is either a memorial to him and his sacrifice it is not. It is no less his seder memorial without the additional liturgy. The blood of the new Covenant....

Which is the kingdom of Christ...which he is the root that brings nourishment to the branches..

I'm mostly in agreement with you here. It's good not to put too much emphasis on the symbol of the real in substitution for the Real, though. The emphasis should ALWAYS be on the Real. Yeeshuwa` the Messiah of God was the REAL Passover, while all the sacrifices made yearly since the Exodus were simply a PICTURE of what was to come.

Now, we have a PICTURE of what the Messiah DID in the past in "the keeping of the Lord's Supper (or Seder)." And, again, the emphasis should be on the Real made in the First Century A.D. rather than on the pictures we have today. The pictures, as you said, are the memorial of what He did and add no efficacy in themselves.

Some believe they must keep the "sacrament of the Eucharist" to be accepted by God, much as they believe that baptism must also be added for His acceptance. But, His finished work was His FINISHED work. No more needed to be added for God's justification of us.

As far as His Kingdom is concerned, it hasn't begun, yet. It will begin when He takes the Throne of David, His ancestor, and becomes the King of Israel.

17 hours ago, Anne2 said:

Yes, under the Levitical Anointed high priest (Christ)

This is a minor error; perhaps, just a typo? We all do them from time to time.

He is NOT a "Levitical Anointed High Priest"; He is "a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec" or "Malkiy-Tsedeq" (Hebrews 7:17, 21 cf. Psalm 110:4).

Our Lord was not from the tribe of Leviy ("Levi") but from the tribe of Yhudaah ("Judah"), but He shall be a King/Priest like "Malkiy-Tsedeq" = "my King of Righteousness." Currently, He is only serving in the role of Priest, and a High Priest in that His Sacrifice was for all sins and He brought the blood to the TRUE Mercy Seat.

Perhaps, you meant He was Anointed LIKE a Levitical Anointed High Priesr. However, His anointing was more for His KINGSHIP rather than His priesthood.

17 hours ago, Anne2 said:

Gentiles were not named on the Shoulders of the Ephod, Nor were they named in the breastplate of decision/judgement...

Indeed the blood of the new covenant of our  anointed high priest

Actually, since each of us is "a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit," we ARE listed with the Yhudiym who are included in the stones for Yhudaah.

17 hours ago, Anne2 said:

Do you see verse 18? BOTH HAVE ACCESS

In the context of verses 15? 

What commandments? The commandments of fleshy elements.....

16  Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
17  For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

It is disannulled....To make one new man
18  For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

No, the commandments of the Law SHOULD BE "written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart." (2 Corinthians 3:3). They are ETERNAL in the NEW Covenant, because "the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good!" (Romans 7:12).

One should NOT find himself or herself in disagreement with the Scriptures.

17 hours ago, Anne2 said:

And verse 19

As not being a son of LEVI Jew's also were not fellow citizens in the very house of God. The priesthood being the inheritance of levi...

Who are the saints that in Christ have fellow citizenship in Gods house?

8 And of Levi he said, Let thy Thummim and thy Urim be with thy holy one, <02623> whom thou didst prove at Massah, and with whom thou didst strive at the waters of Meribah;
9  Who said unto his father and to his mother, I have not seen him; neither did he acknowledge his brethren, nor knew his own children: for they have observed thy word, and kept thy covenant.
10  They shall teach Jacob thy judgments, and Israel thy law: they shall put incense before thee, and whole burnt sacrifice upon thine altar. {They shall teach: or, Let them teach } {they shall put: or, let them put } {before … : Heb. at thy nose }
11  Bless, LORD, his substance, and accept the work of his hands: smite through the loins of them that rise against him, and of them that hate him, that they rise not again.

02623 חסיד chaciyd khaw-seed’

from 02616; adj; [BDB-339b] {See TWOT on 698 @@ "698b"}

AV-saints 19, holy 3, merciful 3, godly 2, good 1, godly man 1, Holy One 1, holy one 1, ungodly + 03808 1; 32

1) faithful, kind, godly, holy one, saint, pious
1a) kind
1b) pious, godly
1c) faithful ones (subst) 

0376 אישׁ ‘iysh eesh

contracted for 0582 [or perhaps rather from an unused root meaning to be extant]; n m; [BDB-35b] {See TWOT on 83 @@ "83a"}

AV-man 1002, men 210, one 188, husband 69, any 27, misc 143; 1639

1) man
1a) man, male (in contrast to woman, female)
1b) husband
1c) human being, person (in contrast to God)
1d) servant
1e) mankind
1f) champion
1g) great man
2) whosoever

3) each (adjective) 

Again priesthood diminished in Rabbinic tradition.....

From where are you getting your notes?

[Locust]

On 3/21/2025 at 8:49 AM, Retrobyter said:

New Jerusalem

In the Book of Revelation, the "New Jerusalem" is a symbolic representation of a heavenly city, a place of eternal peace and glory, described as coming down from God out of heaven to a new earth. 

symbolic representation means its not literal .it shows how all encompassing the kingdom will be

[Anne2]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, @Anne2.

They DID do that with their own liturgies and rituals! Instead of meetings for prayer en masse, they FORCED people to come and pray in a particular way at the "Mass,"

Hello Retro...

Forced who? I asked why would Christians keep rabbinic traditions? They kept Christian liturgy. It was not just a prayer meeting, it was a ministration of priests. Judaism had no priests ministering in synagogue.

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Did you know that the Aramaic word "Pascha" comes from "Pesach," the Hebrew word for "Passover?"

Yes, that was the point of bringing up the use of PASCHA in Rome....Which continues today among the Orthodox (also Catholics).

 

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

I wonder..... Did you know that "Yeast is essential for fermentation, as it converts the natural sugars in grape juice into alcohol"? (Wikipedia - Winemaking). Thus, the "juice of the grapes" was GRAPE JUICE, "new wine," because this was the season of UNLEAVENED BREAD and ALL leavening agents, such as yeast, had to be removed from their houses! And, of course, the bread also had to be unleavened, which makes it look more like an unsalted cracker. Thus, the phrase "breaking of bread" was used.These were the elements that our Lord Yeeshuwa` used at the first "Lord's Supper (κυριακὸν δεῖπνον)" or Seder. (See 1 Corinthians 11:20.)

How many Christian churches still pracitce THAT? Leaven was removed since the beginning as a SYMBOL of haste and the purity of the lambs used just as our Lord when our Lord would be Sacrificed as haKeves 'Elohiym (the Lamb of God) upon the cross.

Where  is wine prescribed for Passover by Moses? It is the Rabbinics... 

The wine is prescribed by Christ..

from Chabad

Quote

"Question:

Why is it permitted to drink wine on Passover when it is fermented with yeast? Isn't yeast forbidden on Passover?

Answer:

Of the hundreds of species of yeast, the Passover prohibition only applies to yeast which is a product of one of the following five grains: wheat, barley, oat, spelt, or rye. Yeast which is the product of grapes, or its sugars, is not considered chametz (leavened food).

Click here for more about chametz.

Have a Kosher and happy Passover!

Rabbi Dovid Zaklikowski
Chabad.org"

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Quite the opposite! I DO believe that the "Lord's Supper" was a Passover seder! What made you think otherwisie?

Because you said they separated passover and Easter, made it illegal to celebrate Jewish Feasts.

I would remind you the Lord's supper Is a passover period...Moses made it illegal for Gentiles to eat Passover. The Lord's supper is not a Rabbinic seder. So, I am not sure who you are speaking of in the above. 

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Some believe they must keep the "sacrament of the Eucharist" to be accepted by God, much as they believe that baptism must also be added for His acceptance. But, His finished work was His FINISHED work. No more needed to be added for God's justification of us.

Again, unclear. The Lord's supper is to show faith in his finished work....Confession for forgiveness is to make one worthy to partake....

His one time sacrifice was not just a passover, his one time sacrifice was sufficient for all the sacrifices. Even the goat on yom kippur. They were all figures and shadows of him.

[Anne2]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

This is a minor error; perhaps, just a typo? We all do them from time to time.

He is NOT a "Levitical Anointed High Priest"; He is "a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec" or "Malkiy-Tsedeq" (Hebrews 7:17, 21 cf. Psalm 110:4).

Our Lord was not from the tribe of Leviy ("Levi") but from the tribe of Yhudaah ("Judah"), but He shall be a King/Priest like "Malkiy-Tsedeq" = "my King of Righteousness." Currently, He is only serving in the role of Priest, and a High Priest in that His Sacrifice was for all sins and He brought the blood to the TRUE Mercy Seat.

Perhaps, you meant He was Anointed LIKE a Levitical Anointed High Priesr. However, His anointing was more for His KINGSHIP rather than His priesthood.

You misunderstood me. Perhaps my fault.

Ephsieans 2:11 ¶  Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12  That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Prophets, kings and priests were "christs" anointed ones..

This is speaking of Gentiles being without an anointed priest without God in the world..

And without the promises of the circumcisions. Having no citizenship.

By nature they were equally Children of wrath.....

2:2  Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3  Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Priestly works of Christ......

4 ¶  But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5  Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) {by … : or, by whose grace }
6  And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7  That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
 

[Anne2]

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Perhaps, you meant He was Anointed LIKE a Levitical Anointed High Priesr. However, His anointing was more for His KINGSHIP rather than His priesthood.

I wonder about this retro.

I think there is no separation in the order of Melchizedek.

Because he always lives he saves to the uttermost. If the order of his priesthood ever absent from his throne? I think this might just be like the trinity in importance.

If Abraham did not have an inheritance in the land of Genesis 15.

But neither did the Priests, Levites.......

 

Acts 7:4  Then came he out of the land of the Chaldaeans, and dwelt in Charran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land, wherein ye now dwell.

5  And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child.

Yet the priesthood was their inheritance????

Nu 18:20  And the LORD spake unto Aaron, Thou shalt have no inheritance in their land, neither shalt thou have any part among them: I am thy part and thine inheritance among the children of Israel.
Nu 18:21  And, behold, I have given the children of Levi all the tenth in Israel for an inheritance, for their service which they serve, even the service of the tabernacle of the congregation.
Nu 18:23  But the Levites shall do the service of the tabernacle of the congregation, and they shall bear their iniquity: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations, that among the children of Israel they have no inheritance.
Nu 18:24  But the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer as an heave offering unto the LORD, I have given to the Levites to inherit: therefore I have said unto them, Among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance.
 

Edited March 24 by Anne2