WHO IS CHRIST?

[Frits]

16 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

“No one has seen God at any time.”  This make a distinction between God and Jesus, which would be contradicted if the next phrase also refers to Jesus as God.

"No man hath seen God at any time" makes no distinction between God and Jesus, on the contrary, for until the Lord Jesus Christ was born, no man had seen Him. But to His disciples the Lord Jesus Christ revealed the following:

'Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?' (Joh 14:9 KJV)

[Frits]

16 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

It's just that a MAJOR change was made when "the Word became flesh" at His fertilization. While He IS the same Word, He is now LIMITED in scope!

So the Word is God Himself, but you think you can limit Him! Do you see to what great folly your human reasoning leads?

[Frits]

16 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

However, verses 9-11 here do NOT say that God His Father "exalted Him" back to being "God."

The Lord Jesus Christ is the true God, and as such He is also identified.

Hebr 1:8 KJV

But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

[Retrobyter]

18 hours ago, Anne2 said:

Hello retro, I just have to ask about this.

Ge 1:1  In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Shalom, @Anne2.

First, it's important to understand that Genesis 1:1 is a SUMMARY of what is to follow. This can be seen in that "hashaamayim" (the heaven) was so NAMED in Genesis 1:8 and "haa'aarets" (the earth) was so NAMED in Genesis 1:10.

So, His Creation actually began with LIGHT, and true science is only now beginning to understand that light, consisting of photonic energy, consists of particles only different than the particles in atoms and molecules by the amount of energy they contain.

The word "hashaamayim" means "the skies (a dual word)." We might say, a "pair of skies." It's the atmosphere around our planet that used to divide a body of water above the skies from the waters below the skies, called "seas." To make the Flood in Noach's time, the body of water above the skies was allowed to fall as rain for 40 days and 40 nights.

18 hours ago, Anne2 said:

Ge 2:1  Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

Mt 19:4  And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
5  And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
6  Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

Mr 12:25  For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

Lu 20:35  But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
 20:36  Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Here, we must go to the definitions of the Greek words used in Mark 12:25 and Luke 20:35 and 36:

Mark 12:25   ὅταν γὰρ ἐκ νεκρῶν ἀναστῶσιν οὔτε γαμοῦσιν οὔτε γαμίσκονται, ἀλλ᾽ εἰσὶν ὡς ἄγγελοι οἱ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς

Mark 12:25  when for from [the]-dead they-are-resurrected neither married nor given-in-marriage, but are like messengers the-ones in the skies.

Luke 20:35-36   οἱ δὲ καταξιωθέντες τοῦ αἰῶνος ἐκείνου τυχεῖν καὶ τῆς ἀναστάσεως τῆς ἐκ νεκρῶν οὔτε γαμοῦσιν οὔτε ἐκγαμίσκονται οὔτε γὰρ ἀποθανεῖν ἔτι δύνανται ἰσάγγελοι γάρ εἰσιν καὶ υἱοί εἰσιν τοῦ θεοῦ τῆς ἀναστάσεως υἱοὶ ὄντες

Luke 20:35-36  those-who but shall-be-accounted-worthy of-the age that-one to-obtain and the resurrection that-one from [the]-dead neither marry nor are-given-in-marriage. Neither for they-die any-more are-able equal-[to]-messengers for they-are and sons they-are of-the God of-the resurrection sons being.

Which, of course, is awkward when translated word-for-word.

Switching things around into English word order,

Luke 20:35-36  But those who shall be accounted worthy to obtain that age and that resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage. For they neither die anymore [nor] are able to for they are equal to messengers and they are sons of God being sons of the resurrection.

The Greek words translated as "in heaven," ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς (en tois ouranois), simply means "in the skies," "ouranois" also being a plural word. Greek doesn't have the dual number (at least, not for this word); therefore, to translate the dual that Yeeshuwa` used, whether He was speaking in Hebrew or Aramaic, the Greek plural was used. It, too, is the "day sky and night sky" which one sees when one looks upward. Here's how our Lord was said to have used the word:

Matthew 16:1-4 (KJV)

1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven (Greek: ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ = "from/out of-the sky"). 2 He answered and said unto them,

"When it is evening, ye say, [It will be] fair weather: for the sky (Greek: ὁ οὐρανός = 'the sky') is red. 3 And in the morning, [It will be] foul weather to day: for the sky (Greek: ὁ οὐρανός· = 'the sky') is red and lowring. O [ye] hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky (Greek: τὸ μὲν πρόσωπον τοῦ οὐρανοῦ = 'the truly face of-the sky'); but can ye not [discern] the signs of the times? 4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas."

And he left them, and departed.

Here, this is just the singular of the word "ouranos" for the translator recognized He was only talking about the daytime sky.

Regarding the Greek word "ἄγγελος" or "aggelos" is concerned, it strictly means a "messenger," whether supernatural or human, whether for God or for someone else.

And, if supernatural, we have this description in Hebrews:

Hebrews 1:13-14 (KJV)

13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, "Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool"? 14 Are they not all ministering spirits (Greek: λειτουργικὰ πνεύματα = "serving winds"), sent forth to minister (Greek: εἰς διακονίαν = "into service-as-a-waiter") for them who shall be heirs of salvation (σωτηρίαν = "salvation; deliverance; rescue")?

So, if each of them is a "wind," they may have been created WITH the sky (hashaamayim) on Day 2 of Creation. Some synonyms might be a "whirlwind, air vortex, dust devil, column of dust and debris, sand pillar, willy willy, tornado, eddy, swirl of wind, or current of air." They might exist as needed, and disappear afterward.

Just some possibilities.

[Frits]

17 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

As a human being, now resurrected and glorified (made to glow), He has given Him a name (an authority) that is above EVERY name (every other authority on earth).

Alas, once again you do not write the truth. Philippians 2 verse 10 on the other hand clearly teaches NOT only on earth:

Fil 2:10 KJV 
"That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth"

And in verse 11 this is emphasized again:

Fil 2:11 KJV 
"And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

Phil 2 verse 10 refers to Isaiah 45:23, where the Most High declared through the prophet:

'I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.'

[Frits]

17 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

He is not "God" anymore in the fulness of what it means to be "God"

Here too you deny the Holy Bible and try to twist it, very bad! I have given you 10 Bible texts that literally state that the Lord Jesus Christ is God.
Even if you continue to deny that He is the true God, then God's Word remains valid, and sooner or later your tongue will also have to confess: the Lord Jesus Christ is God!

Kol 2:9 KJV

For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

[Frits]

17 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

In the same way, He is no longer "God"; rather, He is "God-having-been-born" as a human being!

The Bible teaches something different, namely this:

Heb 13:8 KJV 

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Amen.

[Retrobyter]

7 minutes ago, Frits said:

The Lord Jesus Christ is the true God, and as such He is also identified.

Hebr 1:8 KJV

But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Shalom, @Frits.

One must CONTINUE the quotation! And, then one must go back to see what was quoted within its context!

Hebrews 1:8-9 (KJV)

8 But unto the Son [he saith], "Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, [even] thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows." (Psalm 45:6-7).

Psalm 45:1-17 (KJV)

1 [[To the chief Musician upon Shoshannim, for the sons of Korah, Maschil, A Song of loves.]]

My heart is inditing a good matter: I speak of the things which I have made touching the king: my tongue [is] the pen of a ready writer.

[Said to the King:}

2 Thou art fairer than the children of men: grace is poured into thy lips: therefore God hath blessed thee for ever. 3 Gird thy sword upon [thy] thigh, O [most] mighty, with thy glory and thy majesty. 4 And in thy majesty ride prosperously because of truth and meekness [and] righteousness; and thy right hand shall teach thee terrible things. 5 Thine arrows [are] sharp in the heart of the king's enemies; [whereby] the people fall under thee.

[Said to YHWH God:]

6 Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom [is] a right sceptre.

[Said to the King:]

7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. 8 All thy garments [smell] of myrrh, and aloes, [and] cassia, out of the ivory palaces, whereby they have made thee glad. 9 Kings' daughters [were] among thy honourable women: upon thy right hand did stand the queen in gold of Ophir.

[Said to the Queen:]

10 Hearken, O daughter, and consider, and incline thine ear; forget also thine own people, and thy father's house; 11 So shall the king greatly desire thy beauty: for he [is] thy Lord; and worship thou him.

[God said this to the King:]

12 And the daughter of Tyre [shall be there] with a gift; [even] the rich among the people shall intreat thy favour. 13 The king's daughter [is] all glorious within: her clothing [is] of wrought gold. 14 She shall be brought unto the king in raiment of needlework: the virgins her companions that follow her shall be brought unto thee. 15 With gladness and rejoicing shall they be brought: they shall enter into the king's palace. 16 Instead of thy fathers shall be thy children, whom thou mayest make princes in all the earth. 17 I will make thy name to be remembered in all generations: therefore shall the people praise thee for ever and ever.

One should ALWAYS check the context of a passage!

[Retrobyter]

31 minutes ago, Frits said:

The Bible teaches something different, namely this:

Heb 13:8 KJV 

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Amen.

Shalom, @Frits

I don't have a problem believing Hebrews 13:8; HOWEVER, one must look at this verse VERY CAREFULLY! Yeeshuwa` the Messiah is the same "Yesterday" - a FINITE amount of time one day long! "Today" - another FINITE amount of time one day long! "and for ever" is an INFINITE length of time lasting INDEFINITELY AND ETERNALLY INTO THE FUTURE!

In mathematics, we call this a HALFLINE. On a time line, it begins at a point which is included, on the graph, and a line is drawn to the right, representing time increasing. An arrowhead is placed at the end of the line to show that the line continues into infinity. "The WORD" of God also includes a line to the left, showing that the line had continued eternally in the past, as well. However, that's NOT THE SAME for the One named "Yeeshuwa`" (or "Jesus"), for "the Word BECAME FLESH!" He was not "PUT into flesh" (which is what the word "incarnation" means); He BECAME FLESH! He BEGAN on the day of His fertilization! (Some people say "at conception," but "conception" is now considered a process that includes SEVERAL stages and is no longer representing just fertilization.)

I TOLD you that I would be addressing the 10 verses you initally gave for believing in the deity of the Messiah, but you've jumped the gun a little. I won't speculate on why, but I AM going to get to these verses.

[Michael37]

On 4/11/2025 at 2:57 AM, Frits said:

Christ is God Himself, that is what you and I read in our Bible:

WHO IS CHRIST?

That’s My King By Dr. S.M. Lockridge (In the Public Domain)

The Bible says my King is a seven-way king....

He's the King of the Jews; that's a racial king....

He's the King of Israel; that's a national King....

He's the King of Righteousness....

He's the King of the Ages.....

He's the King of Heaven....

He's the King of Glory....

He's the King of kings, and He's the Lord of lords. That's my King.

Well....I wonder, do you know Him?....

David said, "The Heavens declare the glory of God and the firmament shows His handiwork."

My King is a sovereign King. No means of measure can define His limitless love. No far seeing telescope can bring into visibility the coastline of His shoreless supply. No barrier can hinder Him from pouring out His blessings. He's enduringly strong....He's entirely sincere....He's eternally steadfast....He's immortally graceful....He's imperially powerful....He's impartially merciful.......

Do you know Him?

He's the greatest phenomenon that ever crossed the horizon of this world. He's God's Son....He's a sinner's Saviour....He's the centerpiece of civilization....He stands in the solitude of Himself....He's august....He's unique....He's unparalleled....He's unprecedented....He's the loftiest idea in literature....He's the highest personality in philosophy....He's the supreme problem in higher criticism....He's the fundamental doctrine of true theology....He's the cardinal necessity for spiritual religion....He's the miracle of the age.... He's the superlative of everything good that you choose to call Him....He's the only one qualified to be an all sufficient Saviour......

I wonder if you know Him today?

He supplies strength for the weak....He's available for the tempted and the tried....He sympathizes and He saves....He strengthens and sustains....He guards and He guides....He heals the sick....He cleanses lepers....He forgives sinners....He discharges debtors....He delivers captives....He defends the feeble....He blesses the young....He serves the unfortunate....He regards the aged....He rewards the diligent....and He beautifies the meek.......

I wonder if you know Him?

Well, my King....is the King....He's the key to knowledge....He's the wellspring to wisdom....He's the doorway of deliverance....He's the pathway of peace....He's the roadway of righteousness ....He's the highway of holiness....He's the gateway of glory.......

Do you know Him?

Well....His office is manifold....His promise is sure....His light is matchless....His goodness is limitless....His mercy is everlasting....His love never changes....His word is enough....His grace is sufficient....His reign is righteous....and His yoke is easy, and his burden is light. I wish I could describe Him to you, but He's indescribable....He's incomprehensible....He's invincible....He's irresistible.

Well, you can't get Him out of your mind....You can't get Him off of your hand....You can't out live Him, and you can't live without Him....The Pharisees couldn't stand Him, but they found out they couldn't stop Him....Pilate couldn't find any fault in Him....The witnesses couldn't get their testimonies to agree....Herod couldn't kill Him....Death couldn't handle Him, and the grave couldn't hold Him.

Yea!!!, that's my King, that's my King.

Father..."Thine is the Kingdom....and the Power....and the Glory....Forever"....and ever, and ever, and ever, and ever. How long is that? And ever...and ever...and when you get through with all the forevers, then.... AMEN!....AMEN!