Christ is Israel

[Alive]

9 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

The Covenant God made with Abraham is with his SEED also. That means that it applies to every Israelite who was ever conceived. It is also an "everlasting Covenant". It does not run out with time.
 

Because the problem that man was constructed for is on the earth. Because the an angels are not given the world to come (Heb.2.5). Because Genesis 1:26-28 sets forth the earth as man's domain. Because, according to Jesus' prayer, the Father's will is done in heaven but not on earth. Because God's House and Kingdom will be established on earth (Dan.2:35, Rev.11:15, 21:1 - 22:5).

It is true that our reward and new body are in heaven. But Swiss can have an account and land in Switzerland while guarding the Pope in Rome. Our Lord will bring us bodily with Him when He comes to earth and His reward is with Him when He comes (to earth).

Do you see naturally living humans living on earth but never dying?

[AdHoc]

18 hours ago, Orion said:

Read Joshua 21:43-45 and Galatians 3:16.  Those scriptures confirm that God fulfilled His covenant land promise to Abraham and his seed, and that Yeshua Mashiach is the Seed of Abraham that fulfills the everlasting nature of that covenant. 

 

The Mosaic covenant is annulled by the New covenant in Yeshua Mashiach, (Hebrews 8), and all the OT prophecies and laws are fulfilled in Yeshua Mashiach. (Matthew 5:17; John 19:30).

 

"All Israel" in v.26  refers to the Israel of God, (Galatians 6:16), which is the Body of Christ, faithful Jews and faithful Gentiles from every generation from the beginning of time. 

In re: vv.25-27, these passages point to the time of the end when God will save all the faithful remnant of Israel "according to the election of grace", (Rom. 11:5), that were not blinded, and the last of the Gentiles to be saved, and they (Jews and Gentiles in Christ) will all meet Yeshua in the air when He returns in the end.

No.  Only the faithful remnant of Israel that are in Christ are saved.  

 

This wreaks of universalism.  

Tell me, will the rabbinic writer of that section of the Talmud, that teaches Yeshua is eternally suffering in boiling human excrement in hell, be saved?

I reject dispensationalism.

 

The Israel of God is the Seed of the woman in Genesis 3:15; the Seed of the woman Genesis 3:15 is Christ; and, anyone born again in Christ is in the Israel of God.  

Peace

First, the promise was that the Land was to be an everlasting possession. Israel barely made 800 years. But the prime recipient - Abraham, died and never owned as much as a footprint of the Land. Either God is not Who He said that He was and cannot do what He promised, or Abraham will still receive the Land at a future date.

Our Lord Jesus will disagree that the Law had to be fulfilled in Him. he will "kill and eat" the Passover when He returns (Lk.22:7-16). The Law is not fulfilled by Christ alone but by ISRAEL - which they  have failed to do. Under the New Covenant they will (Ezek.32 & 33).

I am surprised that you say  that the Biblical meaning of "ALL" means "only some". Changing the words of the Bible never ends well.

One of the tactics of the world is to grab a box and paint it black. Then they add something to it and call it bad. Then they don't have to discuss with a man who brings a sound argument. They just put him in their self-made black box and declare the man "bad". The truth is that I did not even mention "dispensationalism". I alluded to the promises of prophets. The truth also is that "dispensationaliism" is a fact of the Bible. 

1 Cor 9:17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.

Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Eph 3:2  If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

The Greek is "oikonomia" and it means "household management".

 

[Luther]

5 hours ago, Anne2 said:

This has so many deeper issues. 

The pharisees established modern Judaism from the time the temple was destroyed.

They willfully took away the inheritance of LEVI. The only tribe whose inheritance was separate from the twelve tribes of Israel.. The priesthood itself was the inheritance to Levi. that included ALL that came with it.

A holiness apart, authority to teach, to decide the difficult matters in judgement, all the sacrifices and offerings belonging to them, from which they and their households ate from the altar. All of that taken away.

Korah's rebellion (jealousy like was at Joseph)

1.) Their greatness was not more than their own...

2.) Their holiness was no greater than their own

3.) their exalted position was no more than all of them.

Num 16:2  And they rose up before Moses, with certain of the children of Israel, two hundred and fifty princes of the assembly, famous in the congregation, men of renown:
3  And they gathered themselves together against Moses and against Aaron, and said unto them, Ye take too much upon you, seeing all the congregation are holy, every one of them, and the LORD is among them: wherefore then lift ye up yourselves above the congregation of the LORD?

The first religion to be enforced by Rome did not occur under Constantine. The same thing occurred here with the pharisees. Where their traditions, were officially given authority as LAW of the Jews. under the law of Moses that belonged to the seat of Moses. Where nothing that came from that seat was without the agreement of the high priest (deut 17:8). The lower courts,( the levites presided over their decisions (deut 21:5, deut 33:8). It was this priestly consent that it became binding law... Mal 2:7

 

There is no difference here between Constantine to the 4th century Church, and Vespasian to the sect of the Pharisees (sages)...Constantine is given a prophesy in his vision of the cross, Vespasian is given a prophesy by Zakai. No different. A new Sanhedrin begins, apart from the priesthood, by the authority of ROME....Rome made the decisions of Sanhedrin binding law of the Jew's.

Zakai snuck out of the city before it fell. Pretending to be dead, put in a coffin, goes to 

the Roman general? VESPASIAN who became Emperor. He Gives Zakai his request upon ascending the throne, due to his prophesy that he would become Emperor...

"Yavneh and its sages

By _JStandardSeptember 19, 2014, 4:00 am

“Give me Yavneh and its sages,” Rabbi Yochanan Ben Zakai is said to have told the Roman general after he escaped from the besieged and doomed city of Jerusalem."

• Yavneh was on the Mediterranean, a dozen miles south of Jaffa. Torah scholars gathered there in a vineyard that served as a refuge and gave the promise of renewal. is said to have told the Roman general after he escaped

  https://res.cloudinary.com/orthodox-union/image/upload/c_scale,f_auto,q_auto/v1689486874/OURedesign/logos/ou-logo-site-small.png

• Meeting with Vespasian

  “When the Jewish party reached the Roman camp, Rabban Yochanan ben Zakkai emerged from the coffin and greeted the general, ‘Peace be unto you, O King! Peace be unto you, O King!’ To which Vespasian responded, ‘You have incurred the death penalty twice. First, you have called me King, and I am not the King! Second, if I am indeed the King, why have you not come out to me earlier, to how me the proper respect?!’ ”

  “Ben Zakkai answered, ‘I knew you had to be a king, because our prophets have foretold that the Temple will fall only into the hands of a king. And the reason I haven’t come out to you until now is that we are plagued by violent extremists within the city, who would not let me come out!’ ”

  “At this point, an Imperial messenger arrived from Rome, and announced, ‘Arise! For the Emperor has died and the Senators have decided to make Vespasian, General of the Legions of Rome, the new Emperor!’ "

T

• What

Thank you for the interesting information I did not know. Judaism is literally modern Pharisaism. And like I mentioned earlier, their interpreting of the Torah runs antithetical to ours. This is why I did away with the term " Judeo-Christian", as if there is an endless common ground with no specifics to the uncommon ground.

Having done my homework, I question the origin of these people that are currently in Israel today and around the world. I have an Ashkenazi Jewish last name, which can either be Russian or polish, presumably Russian. My ancestors came from Eastern Europe and they weren't anywhere near the Middle East. If we are talking blood descendancy, you have to really think about that. We're talking over 2,000 years of blood mixing. There has never been a pure-blooded Israel race throughout the world after they've been expelled. They assimilated with other nations. And they weren't very large in number either. Several million amongst tens of millions? You could understand that that DNA is pretty weak.

Benjamin Netanyahu, for example, is polish. He is an Ashkenazi Jew. He does not have any Middle Eastern descent. I'm trying to understand where the  "Jew" part came from.

Edited May 25 by Michael37
Construction errors corrected

[Anne2]

51 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

The Covenant God made with Abraham is with his SEED also. That means that it applies to every Israelite who was ever conceived. It is also an "everlasting Covenant". It does not run out with time.

First of all, God made two covenants with Abraham.

Genesis 15 this world, this life. In their generations.

[Luther]

2 hours ago, In1 said:

God calls every son out of Egypt.

I agree, and that's how I look at Exodus 4:22. It has spiritual meaning relating to Christ and His people. That's how I understand the beautiful importance of Israel in God's eyes.

[AdHoc]

33 minutes ago, Alive said:

Do you see naturally living humans living on earth but never dying?

The question is difficult. Those CHRISTIANS who are alive when Christ comes will never die. Bu they are "changed" (1st Cor.15:50-54). If you mean "natural life" to be that from the mothers womb then Romans 5:12-17 answers that. All men die. If your question was within the context of man's destiny being on earth, then I will state the following;

Man is headed for death and subsequent judgment. At no time do men leave the earth except Christians who are raptured. But these, after a short sojourn in the air, return with Christ (1st Thess.4:13, Rev.19). At the White Throne the "rest of men" are judged. If we consider the conjunction "and" at the beginning of Revelation 21, then there is, on the New Earth, no death (see also 1st Corinthians 15:26). The details of this are not given, but "mortality is swallowed by immortality" for ALL men (Verse 22).

Thus, all men are alive and on earth including Jesus. He being Seed of Abraham (Matt.1:1), must inherit the world (Rom.4:13).

The Roman Catholic Church, which ruled Christianity for thousand years, needed a doctrine of heaven and hell because (i) they sold indulgences, and (ii) they are "Kingdom Now" by doctrine. Matthew 13 says that the  members of the Kingdom were "leavened". That men go to heaven after death is one of their most destructive doctrines. The trouble with leaven is that you can NOT get it out of the grain. Let's take David -future king of Israel (Jer.30:9, Act.15:14-16). In Acts 2:24-36 David is found still dead and his soul in HADES. This was 50 days after Christ's resurrection and 10 days after His ascension. But the majority of posters on this Forum will fight to have him in heaven.

[AdHoc]

22 minutes ago, Anne2 said:

First of all, God made two covenants with Abraham.

Genesis 15 this world, this life. In their generations.

Only one was ratified by blood. Every mention of THE Covenant is singular in the entire Bible. Maybe you are counting the promises. I count 15.

[Alive]

6 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

The question is difficult. Those CHRISTIANS who are alive when Christ comes will never die. Bu they are "changed" (1st Cor.15:50-54). If you mean "natural life" to be that from the mothers womb then Romans 5:12-17 answers that. All men die. If your question was within the context of man's destiny being on earth, then I will state the following;

Man is headed for death and subsequent judgment. At no time do men leave the earth except Christians who are raptured. But these, after a short sojourn in the air, return with Christ (1st Thess.4:13, Rev.19). At the White Throne the "rest of men" are judged. If we consider the conjunction "and" at the beginning of Revelation 21, then there is, on the New Earth, no death (see also 1st Corinthians 15:26). The details of this are not given, but "mortality is swallowed by immortality" for ALL men (Verse 22).

Thus, all men are alive and on earth including Jesus. He being Seed of Abraham (Matt.1:1), must inherit the world (Rom.4:13).

The Roman Catholic Church, which ruled Christianity for thousand years, needed a doctrine of heaven and hell because (i) they sold indulgences, and (ii) they are "Kingdom Now" by doctrine. Matthew 13 says that the  members of the Kingdom were "leavened". That men go to heaven after death is one of their most destructive doctrines. The trouble with leaven is that you can NOT get it out of the grain. Let's take David -future king of Israel (Jer.30:9, Act.15:14-16). In Acts 2:24-36 David is found still dead and his soul in HADES. This was 50 days after Christ's resurrection and 10 days after His ascension. But the majority of posters on this Forum will fight to have him in heaven.

I will give this more consideration at a later time, as I am occupied. Thank you.

[AdHoc]

1 minute ago, Alive said:

I will give this more consideration at a later time, as I am occupied. Thank you.

A wise choice. Take your time. May God give light.

[Anne2]

49 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Only one was ratified by blood.

Hello AdHoc, both are ratified in blood

Genesis 15 animals

Genesis 17 circumcision

Moses wife...

Ex 4:25  Then Zipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast it at his feet, and said, Surely a bloody husband art thou to me. {sharp … : or, knife } {cast … : Heb. made it touch }
Ex 4:26  So he let him go: then she said, A bloody husband thou art, because of the circumcision.
 

49 minutes ago, AdHoc said:

Every mention of THE Covenant is singular in the entire Bible.

Not so.... Genesis 15 tells you he made covenant (blood of animals)

The women are an allegory for the covenants. Two sons

Deut 5:2  The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
3  The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.

It tells us right here.......
Ge 15:18  In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

Ge 21:10  Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son.

Covenant as a will of inheritance

Heb 9:16  For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. {be: or, be brought in }
Heb 9:17  For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Some things to point out.

Gen 25:5  And Abraham gave all that he had unto Isaac.

This is gifting, while he yet lived. It is not an inheritance..
6  But unto the sons of the concubines, which Abraham had, Abraham gave gifts, and sent them away from Isaac his son, while he yet lived, eastward, unto the east country.

The blessing of his birthright, come into effect...
11 And it came to pass after the death of Abraham, that God blessed his son Isaac; and Isaac dwelt by the well Lahairoi.
 

Genesi 17 is where you find these things.....

The women are an allegory for the covenants. Two sons

Ga 4:24  Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

Years later God gives Abraham the covenant of circumcision

A father of many nations

1  And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. {perfect: or, upright, or, sincere }
2  And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
3  And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,
4 ¶  As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. {many … : Heb. multitude of nations }
5  Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

It is a covenant promising royal seed

6  And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
7 ¶  And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

The woman Sarah an allegory for the royal covenant....Nations and kings....

15 And God said unto Abraham, As for Sarai thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall her name be. {Sarah: that is Princess }
16  And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.

The woman Hagar an allegory of sinai
Ishmael, a great nation, twelve princes.

17  Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear?
18  And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!
19  And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.
20  And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
21  But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.

Moses never Gave them Kings, thou it was allowed.

princes

Nu 1:16  These were the renowned of the congregation, princes of the tribes of their fathers, heads of thousands in Israel.
Nu 1:44  These are those that were numbered, which Moses and Aaron numbered, and the princes of Israel, being twelve men: each one was for the house of his fathers.
 

If they put a king over, just had to be from one of the twelve tribes.  But kings are not given by the law.

Moses gave a priesthood, a kingdom of priests. Which tribe Levi, had no inheritance in the land with Israel.

Edited May 25 by Anne2