Death Penalty

[RustyAngeL]

As I stated in one of the 1,000 topics we have about Tookie:

Whoever sheds man's blood, by man his blood shall be shed, for in the image of God He made man.

It's called justice. If we use the passage refering to the adulterous woman then we could not condemn anyone or send anyone to prison. That passage is refering to actions within the church. The role of the government is to deliver justice, not grace.

I Agree.

[Avidan]

[

quote name='nebula' post='479845' date='Dec 3 2005, 02:10 AM]

You [Avidan] still have not answered a single one of my questions.

I do not hang out at this board all day.

That's beside the point.

When one engages in debate, one should attempt to answer counter arguments.

By passing them only shows that you have no answer, thus making your own argument weaker.

How is a prison sentence suitable justice for a man who has surrendered himself to evil?

How is salvation justice when we did the same?

You are mixing apples and oranges.

Redemption from sin is "apples." Consequences are "oranges."

Again, I appeal to what happened with King David.

His life was spared only besause he repented, but even still a life was required to pay the price - that of his son. He was given other punishments he had to endure as well.

You can read them here: 2 Samuel 12:1-14 (Begin at vs. 10 for the sentence.)

And please explain why forgiveness = no death penalty and not release from prison.

That makes not sense.

If forgiveness changes consequences, shouldn't it be eliminating all consequences?

The consequence is a life spent behind bars. That is justice. Repaying evil for evil. . . .

How is this justice? How does it deter from crime? How well does prison actually rehab hardened criminals?

Pr 11:10 - When it goes well with the righteous, the city rejoices; And when the wicked perish, there is jubilation.

Pr 28:28 - When the wicked arise, men hide themselves; But when they perish, the righteous increase.

And how is atomenent made for the lives of those whose blood was spilled?

Taking his life is murder. Or an eye for an eye.

Was the Lord wicked for commanding the death penalty in the first place?

Why do you think the Lord commanded to put such people to death?

As for the "eye for an eye" - Jesus was speaking to the people concerning their personal lives, not the governing body on how to rule.

Also, you should do a study on the different Hebrew and Greek words used for "kill" and "murder". I did. There are different words used to describe "murder" and other types of killing, including "execution." To insert "murder" in the Scripture where it mentions "slaying" the wicked is to change the text of Scripture.

And BTW - did Jesus ever speak out against the executions performed by the Roman government in His time on Earth?

The only time sentences were lessened or lifted in Scripture were when the guilty person repented.

Williams refused to apologise, he claims he did not commit the crime.

I say he was framed by the highly corrupt L.A.P.D. and the corrupt "IN"-justice system.[/quote]

Care to provide your evidence?

Williams was also a victim.

A victim of sin, racisim, social enginnering, drugs, stupidity, street survival, welfare, and his own developed sense of hate for himself.

And his choices have nothing to do with anything?

Are you saying free will has nothing to do with anything?

I am saying that he had no chance.

And that justifies his actions?

Did the Lord release Jezebel because she was born to a foreign country and raised to serve Baal?

Should Hitler have been excused because of his terrible upbringing?

Honostly, please proved the Scripture that states "men are with excuse."

Uh oh, is, is, is that General Sam leading the posse?

And his Brigadeer General Oveyda?

Now that was immature of you.

That was humor.

Something you should recognise.

Humor is supposed to be funny.

That wasn't.

Hi,

Good morning to you all. I can see you all still argueing about all this.

By their fruits you shall know them.

Well, you came back to the argument.

What does that say?

Sorry about the tying error, I'll definately correct that, Thank you!

Thank-you! It is appreciated.

Well since am not making sence to you; I'll answer for the sake of someone who seems to get the point. Offcourse we all are sinners redeemed by his blood, we were all guilty of sin, but God gave His Son to die for us on the cross so that we might be saved and not die both physically and spiritually.

OK - hold it here.

Where do you get that we are saved from physical death?

So the same way he gave you the chance to get saved not by your power or might but by His spirit, why not let this man get life imprisonement,

Now, this is what I don't get.

Why do you and others believe that prison is an effective means of fighting crime?

What exactly is the reform rate vs. the repeat offender rate?

And what does life in prison actually serve?

Hsve you heard that some people actually commit crimes just so they can have "three hots and a cot"?

Honostly, what does prison do for justice?

he might repent and get born again while he is in there.

And Bin Laden might just decide to surrender to the US forces, too.

As a previous post mentioned - death row has a way of reaching people for Christ better than life in prison does.

I dont know when you gave your life to Christ and got born again, but am I glad for you that God gave you the chance to repent because if it was not for Christ dying for your sins you would go straight to hell.

I was about 4 or 5 years old, actually.

As for your second question, WE are not the goverment, WE are born again christians here, we are talking about us forgiving the man like Christ asked us to. The goverment is not born again, they are non-believers thats why we dont blame them for their decision, the difference between what the world does and what we Christians do and feel should be very different.

Here's the thing. Forgiveness is not in my hands since the man did nothing to affect me in any way.

For another - imagine a parent or a teacher dealing with a child who did something wrong. For the sake of argument, we can say the child vandalized someone else's property, or we can say the child punched another child in the nose. Now, the child denies the crime, yet there is sufficient evidence to show that this child was indeed guilty. Does the adult, as a good Christian, freely forgive the child and lesson the potential sentence to standing in the corner for five minutes.

What message does this give to the other children? Does it fix the vandalized property or make the child with the bleeding nose feel safe? Does it encourage the guilty child to no longer vandalize or hit?

You see, as far as administering law, your argument misses out on how to protect society and give criminals the message that such actions have consequences that they do not want to pay.

Do you honostly believe that prison deters from crime for street gangs?

Or what about the man in Florida who kidnapped, raped, and buried alive nine-year old Jessica Lunsford?

Yeah - lock 'em up in prison and all will be at peace with the world.

Then if everyone here thinks and does like the world, then are we really born again? or just claiming to be Christians.

Well, for someone who loves to quote about not judging, you sure are quick to judge here, aren't you?

. . . The whole point of this topic was to see how we respond to other peoples mistakes. Its obvious we are very quick to condemn others and think we have less sins or less guilty than murderers but hallo we aint.

I fail to understand why you insist that:

unforgiveness = death penalty

forgiveness = life in prison

And how is locking someone in prison for life "not condemning" anyway?

It's still passing a sentence, is it not?

As for the "less guilty" biz, it sounds like you do not believe that murder is all that serious.

What do you believe the Lord meant by one's "blood crying to [Him] from the ground"?

If sin could be compared to sickness - one could see that different sicknesses require different actions. Some, you can let go for they will take care of themselves, others you need to be more aggressive about, and others the only cure is to cut it out.

As far as salvation goes, yes the blood of Jesus covers all.

But as far as treatment goes, you can't just let the effects go.

When Eric and Dylan went on their shooting spree in Columbine High, there were students who testified that they felt the presence of evil when the two walked into the library.

If those two hadn't killed themselves, would you believe a life of prison would have reformed them? What does them carrying the presence of evil with them mean to you?

I will ask again -

How is prison a suitable punishment?

Will that instill fear in people to not likewise commit such a crime?

Will this protect people to allow this man to still have a voice? What about the other inmates? Have you considered his influence on them?

Likewise - what is your opinion of the laws given by the Lord Himself to Israel that murderers were to be punished by death?

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There is some twisted people in the "Church".

99% of the time they are "true blue Americans", and mix the two theologys.

Which is why I removed myself from the church 12 years ago.

Lots of worship

Lots of prayer

Limited felowship, very limited fellowship.

Edited December 3, 2005 by Avidan

[Avidan]

" Then Jesus said, "Father forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." And as they divided His garments, they cast lots. Now the people stood by observing and the rulers among them were also deriding Him, saying, 'He saved others; let Him save Himself, if this is the Christ, the chosen of God.' "(Luke 23:34-35)

Jesus forgave those who tortured, humiliated, and drove spikes into HIS wrist and feet.

So will I.

[nebula]

There is some twisted people in the "Church".

99% of the time they are "true blue Americans", and mix the two theologys.

Which is why I removed myself from the church 12 years ago.

Lots of worship

Lots of prayer

Limited felowship, very limited fellowship.

Unfortunately, this does nothing for the debate.

Avidan, you still are not addressing the issue.

What love will you give society who is threatened by criminals?

What love will you give the victims' loved ones?

How will you prevent repeat offenses?

Please stop acting so self-righteous in this debate, OK? That isn't answering the challenges.

[Avidan]

There is some twisted people in the "Church".

99% of the time they are "true blue Americans", and mix the two theologys.

Which is why I removed myself from the church 12 years ago.

Lots of worship

Lots of prayer

Limited felowship, very limited fellowship.

Unfortunately, this does nothing for the debate.

Avidan, you still are not addressing the issue.

What love will you give society who is threatened by criminals?

What love will you give the victims' loved ones?

How will you prevent repeat offenses?

Please stop acting so self-righteous in this debate, OK? That isn't answering the challenges.

]I said Do not release Williams three times.

I said do not kill him.

I said forgive him.

Let him live.

Then Jesus said, "Father forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." And as they divided His garments, they cast lots. Now the people stood by observing and the rulers among them were also deriding Him, saying, 'He saved others; let Him save Himself, if this is the Christ, the chosen of God.' "(Luke 23:34-35)

Jesus forgave those who tortured, humiliated, and drove spikes into HIS wrist and feet.

So will I.

Does this add to the disscusion?

Or am I being "self-righteous as Jesus.

Edited December 4, 2005 by Avidan

[Keith]

I said Do not release Williams three times.

I said do not kill him.

I said forgive him.

Let him live.

Then Jesus said, "Father forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." And as they divided His garments, they cast lots. Now the people stood by observing and the rulers among them were also deriding Him, saying, 'He saved others; let Him save Himself, if this is the Christ, the chosen of God.' "(Luke 23:34-35)

Jesus forgave those who tortured, humiliated, and drove spikes into HIS wrist and feet.

So will I.

Does this add to the disscusion?

Or am I being "self-righteous as Jesus.

No, actually you are being pretty self-righteous on your own.

Forgiveness doesn't mean a person doesn't have to suffer the consequences for their choices. The law states that he must die. As far as Luke 23:34 goes, the men who were crucifying Jesus didn't know/believe they were crucifying the Lord. They didn't know what they were doing, i.e., they were ignorant. A man or woman who kills someone today is not ignorant. They know it's wrong and they know they risk being put to death. They can certainly be forgiven, but the consequences to their decision will still play out.

[Avidan]

I said Do not release Williams three times.

I said do not kill him.

I said forgive him.

Let him live.

Then Jesus said, "Father forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." And as they divided His garments, they cast lots. Now the people stood by observing and the rulers among them were also deriding Him, saying, 'He saved others; let Him save Himself, if this is the Christ, the chosen of God.' "(Luke 23:34-35)

Jesus forgave those who tortured, humiliated, and drove spikes into HIS wrist and feet.

So will I.

Does this add to the disscusion?

Or am I being "self-righteous as Jesus.

No, actually you are being pretty self-righteous on your own.

Forgiveness doesn't mean a person doesn't have to suffer the consequences for their choices. The law states that he must die. As far as Luke 23:34 goes, the men who were crucifying Jesus didn't know/believe they were crucifying the Lord. They didn't know what they were doing, i.e., they were ignorant. A man or woman who kills someone today is not ignorant. They know it's wrong and they know they risk being put to death. They can certainly be forgiven, but the consequences to their decision will still play out.

Thats one of the greatest twist of scripture I have heard in a long time.

[Keith]

Forgiveness doesn't mean a person doesn't have to suffer the consequences for their choices. The law states that he must die. As far as Luke 23:34 goes, the men who were crucifying Jesus didn't know/believe they were crucifying the Lord. They didn't know what they were doing, i.e., they were ignorant. A man or woman who kills someone today is not ignorant. They know it's wrong and they know they risk being put to death. They can certainly be forgiven, but the consequences to their decision will still play out.

Thats one of the greatest twist of scripture I have heard in a long time.

Well, there's hope for you yet! But if you can recognize that little test (in bold) as wrong, how can you not see your own error? You know how the above (in bold) sounded to you? Twisted and off? Well, that's how what you've been posting sounds.

[Guest shiloh357]

There is some twisted people in the "Church".

99% of the time they are "true blue Americans", and mix the two theologys.

Which is why I removed myself from the church 12 years ago.

Lots of worship

Lots of prayer

Limited felowship, very limited fellowship.

Unfortunately, this does nothing for the debate.

Avidan, you still are not addressing the issue.

What love will you give society who is threatened by criminals?

What love will you give the victims' loved ones?

How will you prevent repeat offenses?

Please stop acting so self-righteous in this debate, OK? That isn't answering the challenges.

]I said Do not release Williams three times.

I said do not kill him.

I said forgive him.

Let him live.

Then Jesus said, "Father forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." And as they divided His garments, they cast lots. Now the people stood by observing and the rulers among them were also deriding Him, saying, 'He saved others; let Him save Himself, if this is the Christ, the chosen of God.' "(Luke 23:34-35)

Jesus forgave those who tortured, humiliated, and drove spikes into HIS wrist and feet.

So will I.

Does this add to the disscusion?

Or am I being "self-righteous as Jesus.

But Jesus still died didn't he? You seem to be missing an important point. God has a death penalty. Someone had to die for sin. Jesus took your place, when you deserved to die. Jesus asked for them to be forgiven, but He did not ask God to remove the "death penalty." The death penalty for sin has not been removed. Jesus, on the cross suffered all of God's judgement on sin that you would not have to. He died in order that we might be spared God's judgement, namely death on account of our sin.

If a person rejects Christ, they will die under God's "death penalty." God's forgiveness is available, but it is not automatic. You have to accept the Christ and His finished work upon the cross, or you will die the second death, which a much, much, much worse consequence than physical death.

So, really trying to use God and the Bible to argue against the death penalty, is just silly. God, who is unchanging, commanded the death penalty to be excersised in certain situations. He has a death penalty in place today for those who reject the Messiah, and according to Isaiah 66:24, during the millenium we will be able to see the carcasses of those who were God's enemies laying in the fields. God is not anti-death pentalty, you cannot live by a higher standard than He does.

[JesusisGod2]

There is some twisted people in the "Church".

99% of the time they are "true blue Americans", and mix the two theologys.

Which is why I removed myself from the church 12 years ago.

Lots of worship

Lots of prayer

Limited felowship, very limited fellowship.

Unfortunately, this does nothing for the debate.

Avidan, you still are not addressing the issue.

What love will you give society who is threatened by criminals?

What love will you give the victims' loved ones?

How will you prevent repeat offenses?

Please stop acting so self-righteous in this debate, OK? That isn't answering the challenges.

]I said Do not release Williams three times.

I said do not kill him.

I said forgive him.

Let him live.

Then Jesus said, "Father forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." And as they divided His garments, they cast lots. Now the people stood by observing and the rulers among them were also deriding Him, saying, 'He saved others; let Him save Himself, if this is the Christ, the chosen of God.' "(Luke 23:34-35)

Jesus forgave those who tortured, humiliated, and drove spikes into HIS wrist and feet.

So will I.

Does this add to the disscusion?

Or am I being "self-righteous as Jesus.

But Jesus still died didn't he? You seem to be missing an important point. God has a death penalty. Someone had to die for sin. Jesus took your place, when you deserved to die. Jesus asked for their forgiveness, but He did not ask God to remove the "death penalty." The death penalty for sin has not been removed. Jesus, on the cross suffered all of God's judgement on sin that you would not have to. He died in order that we might be spared God's judgement, namely death on account of our sin.

If a person rejects Christ, they will die under God's "death penalty." God's forgiveness is available, but it is not automatic. You have to accept the Christ and His finished work upon the cross, or you will die the second death, which a much, much, much worse consequence than physical death.

So, really trying to use God and the Bible to argue against the death penalty, is just silly. God, who is unchanging, commanded the death penalty to be excersised in certain situations. He has a death penalty in place today for those who reject the Messiah, and according to Isaiah 66:24, during the millenium we will be able to see the carcasses of those who were God's enemies laying in the fields. God is not anti-death pentalty, you cannot live by a higher standard than He does.

Amen Shiloh,

I am in total agreement. I have had these debates with others on numerous occassions and have decided to just read this one until now.

This could not have been better worded. Gods judgement for an unruley child was to have that child stoned to death.

Deuteronomy 21:20-22

20 "They shall say to the elders of his city, 'This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey us, he is a glutton and a drunkard.'

21 "(A)Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death; so (B)you shall remove the evil from your midst, and ©all Israel will hear of it and fear.

22 "If a man has committed a sin (D)worthy of death and he is put to death, and you hang him on a tree,

God Himself, instituted the death penalty.