Death Penalty

[heavenlyfavoured]

I do not believe Williams knows YAHSHUA.

He is among the most feared inmates in San Quentin. Although restricted to death row, he weilds a big hammer.

My take is forgive him.

Scripture over rides Gov"t. My humble opinion.

So then, it's righteous to forgive a man who murdered four people? We should just tell him, "Okay, we all forgive you for taking the lives of four people and ruining the lives of his family and friends. Here's a few bucks to get you back on your feet. Have a great life."

What about justice?

Hi,

Did u read what i just posted 45 minutes b4 or did u just over look it.

I suggested that death penalty is 2 high, mayb sentensing a long period of time would do. And by the way if u dont feel sorry 4 this guy that he'll go 2 hell 4 his sins b4 repenting, then mayb u need a heart of compasion because if our Lord had compation, if u claim 2 b a believer and His follower, then may i ask, where is ur compasion?

Well to begin with, my response was to Avidan.

Secondly, no, I do not feel sorry for him. Why should I feel sorrow and compassion for a man who murdered four people in cold blood? Why should I feel sorry for a man who co-founded the strongest, most brutal, and most criminal organization that the county of Los Angeles has ever known? To me that's like asking if I feel sorrow or compassion for Hitler.

Hi,

No offence but r u really born again. If u r then u would forgive ur brother everytime he sins.

U know u seem to have forgotten that Christ died for us while we were still sinners. If Christ did not die for your sins, do you know that you would b just as guilty in Gods eyes as this man?????

I know you were not responding to me directly, but then this is an open forum, if you need to only post to a particular person pliz use pm, no offense. I still love u like my brother in Christ and am actually going right now to church, i am very glad to give my piece of mind on this topic. We r all one body in christ. We all need each other,and we should all have a teachable heart.

Correct me where am wrong.

[heavenlyfavoured]

Okay, now where in the Bible does it specifically state that we should forgive a murderer and set him free?

Hi,

There r some things that r not always qouted in the bible, like there is no place it says we should forgive a murderer but i know God forgave me my sins and loved me first. He choose to save me, by his grace i am saved, not by my might or strength. If it was for me to save myself i would not even do anything about that.

I feel very sorry for this man. I see myself in him b4 i was trully born again; blind, so ignorant, full of pride and Lost.

Thats what i see.

God bless!!!

[Ovedya]

I do not believe Williams knows YAHSHUA.

He is among the most feared inmates in San Quentin. Although restricted to death row, he weilds a big hammer.

My take is forgive him.

Scripture over rides Gov"t. My humble opinion.

So then, it's righteous to forgive a man who murdered four people? We should just tell him, "Okay, we all forgive you for taking the lives of four people and ruining the lives of his family and friends. Here's a few bucks to get you back on your feet. Have a great life."

What about justice?

Hi,

Did u read what i just posted 45 minutes b4 or did u just over look it.

I suggested that death penalty is 2 high, mayb sentensing a long period of time would do. And by the way if u dont feel sorry 4 this guy that he'll go 2 hell 4 his sins b4 repenting, then mayb u need a heart of compasion because if our Lord had compation, if u claim 2 b a believer and His follower, then may i ask, where is ur compasion?

Well to begin with, my response was to Avidan.

Secondly, no, I do not feel sorry for him. Why should I feel sorrow and compassion for a man who murdered four people in cold blood? Why should I feel sorry for a man who co-founded the strongest, most brutal, and most criminal organization that the county of Los Angeles has ever known? To me that's like asking if I feel sorrow or compassion for Hitler.

Hi,

No offence but r u really born again. If u r then u would forgive ur brother everytime he sins.

U know u seem to have forgotten that Christ died for us while we were still sinners. If Christ did not die for your sins, do you know that you would b just as guilty in Gods eyes as this man?????

I know you were not responding to me directly, but then this is an open forum, if you need to only post to a particular person pliz use pm, no offense. I still love u like my brother in Christ and am actually going right now to church, i am very glad to give my piece of mind on this topic. We r all one body in christ. We all need each other,and we should all have a teachable heart.

Correct me where am wrong.

I realize that you're pretty new here, sis, and you'll get used to how these conversations flow. Although this is an open forum and discussions are for everyone to read, when you use the quote function it is usually for the purpose of addressing the specific comments of the person that you are quoting. Although your original comment added to the discussion, my response to Avidan needn't have taken your comment into consideration. In other words, I didn't ignore your comment, I just didn't respond to it.

Secondly, I am a believer in Christ. However, my faith in the Lord Jesus does not hinge upon how I feel about someone who was convicted of a crime, and neither does my faith hinge upon whether or not I feel compassion for him. In Christ I feel compassion for all unsaved men. I wish that all would be saved and come to the full knowledge of the truth in Christ. However, my feelings for a person's salvation is apart from my feelings concerning what is just and right according to the laws of the land.

Think about it, if we were to simply "write off" eveyone's crimes against humanity for the sake of "feeling compassion" for them, then the whole earth would be completely lawless. Having compassion and having a sense of pity for a person has nothing to do with the fact that we have a system of laws designed to protect society and to punish those who break those laws. So, while I may feel that persons like "Tookie" Williams really need the Lord, and they need to know the joys of salvation, at the same time he committed a crime, and therefore must be punished for that crime.

[nebula]

No offence but r u really born again. If u r then u would forgive ur brother everytime he sins.

Forgive your brother.

Is the man in question your brother?

He is an enemy of the Cross.

[mikado5001]

I am for Forgivness. I am also for justice. And rehabilitation. If a convict can make a POSITIVE difference to society. Either being out of prison, or from inside. Then he should be allowed to do so. Look at Son of Sam. He is bringing people to JESUS from inside prison walls. The very fact that he has repented is a miracle in and of itself. And I commend him for not wanting to be set free. Not to say that he has not earned it. But by the fact that he sees the severity of his crime. And, unlike some folks, sees G-d's purpose for him. To minister ro prisoners. G-d looks after everyone.

And I beg to differ on execution being justice served. I believe that it is more for revenge than any other reason. What about those who say "I'd pull the switch if I could"? So there is a prevalent revenge thirst here.

[nebula]

Think about it, if we were to simply "write off" eveyone's crimes against humanity for the sake of "feeling compassion" for them, then the whole earth would be completely lawless. Having compassion and having a sense of pity for a person has nothing to do with the fact that we have a system of laws designed to protect society and to punish those who break those laws. So, while I may feel that persons like "Tookie" Williams really need the Lord, and they need to know the joys of salvation, at the same time he committed a crime, and therefore must be punished for that crime.

I agree.

Romans 13:1-6

1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God's minister to you for good. . . .

It is the role of the governing authorities to punish criminals for their crimes.

Right?

So what is suitable punishment for a cold-blooded murderer?

Lock him up for life?

How is that a suitable punishment?

Will that instill fear in people to not likewise commit such a crime?

Will this protect people to allow this man to still have a voice? What about the other inmates? Have you considered his influence on them?

Finally - what is your opinion of the laws given by the Lord Himself to Israel that murderers were to be punished by death?

[nebula]

And I beg to differ on execution being justice served.

What for you would be suitable justice for a man who has given himself over to evil, then?

And what is your opinion on the laws the Lord gave to Israel in how to punish murder?

[Ovedya]

Honestly, were I the father, brother, or friend og one of the four people that "tookie" killed, I don;t know that I wouldn't want to pull the switch myself either. So you're probably right about the sense of revenge there. However, the system of laws that puts him to death is not driven by emotion or a sense of revenge.

[Ovedya]

So what is suitable punishment for a cold-blooded murderer?

Lock him up for life?

How is that a suitable punishment?

Will that instill fear in people to not likewise commit such a crime?

I agree also.

Taking a poor young man off the streets and giving him three square meals a day, a bed, and other amenities like television, a computer, books, and access to making profits in the outside world is hardly a punishment befitting the crime. It also doesn't serve as a deterrent for other criminals. In fact, in Los Angeles County they keep inmates segregated by race, and by gang affiliation - or at least they used to. So a lot of these guys are quite comfortable, relatively safe, and secure in jail. I'm sure that, with the backlog of court cases, appeals, time served, early release of criminals due to overcrowding, and the various "civil rights" groups they can appeal to, they are not the least bit afraid of a temporary "time out" in jail.

That's what jail seems to have become, in fact: Nothing but a big "time out" for criminals.

[DaniJ87]

Scripture enjoins the death penalty for several crimes. However, when DNA testing became available, a lot of fellows on death row had their DNA checked against available evidence from their cases, and 1/3 were found to be innocent!

If we're executing the wrong guy 1/3 of the time, we are NOT using the death penalty correctly.

The evidence against this Tookie fellow is pretty everwhelming though, is it not?

What about what could have happened in OT times? Do you think that every decision that they ever made was perfect? But God gave the system, anyway.

Hi,

No offence but r u really born again. If u r then u would forgive ur brother everytime he sins.

U know u seem to have forgotten that Christ died for us while we were still sinners. If Christ did not die for your sins, do you know that you would b just as guilty in Gods eyes as this man?????

Whether or not you have to forgive people who offend you, comparing it to Christ is sort of missing the point; Jesus did not just forgive our debts- he took the payment FOR them, as He was a perfect being who was capable of that. This did not extend to whatever people were doing physically, and how the government sees them: If someone murders someone, Jesus' sacrifice says, "look- I will forgive you for your sin- go and sin no more". However, it does not say, "I forgive you- so you don't need to take the punishment for your crimes." Consequences do not to away, just because you are forgiven. Moreover, if you do not accept the forgiveness, you do not have escape from even the spiritual consequences.

Also, comparing it to the adulterous woman, is illogical- If you notice, Jesus did not even say that adulteresses should not be stoned. He merely said "Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone." Because none of us is without sin, and people still need to be punished, He was obviously not talking about ANY type of sin, but of that type of sin in particular; if you are an adulterer, you have no right to be executing the adulteress.

Jesus said that He did not come to condemn the law, but to fulfill it. That means that he did not completely eradicate all laws that occur in the OT.

Also consider that in the OT, being a rebellious child was enough to earn you the death penalty. Today, we are quite lenient, only giving the death penalty for serious felonies.

The OT is not obsolete; only fufilled and completed.

Secondly, I am a believer in Christ. However, my faith in the Lord Jesus does not hinge upon how I feel about someone who was convicted of a crime, and neither does my faith hinge upon whether or not I feel compassion for him. In Christ I feel compassion for all unsaved men. I wish that all would be saved and come to the full knowledge of the truth in Christ. However, my feelings for a person's salvation is apart from my feelings concerning what is just and right according to the laws of the land.

Think about it, if we were to simply "write off" eveyone's crimes against humanity for the sake of "feeling compassion" for them, then the whole earth would be completely lawless. Having compassion and having a sense of pity for a person has nothing to do with the fact that we have a system of laws designed to protect society and to punish those who break those laws. So, while I may feel that persons like "Tookie" Williams really need the Lord, and they need to know the joys of salvation, at the same time he committed a crime, and therefore must be punished for that crime.

Amen!

For everyone else;

once you decide that the government has the authority to give out punishment- think about the punishments for things in the OT... compare it to what we have now, and then see if you think that our government is too harsh.

the death penalty is not murder. Murder is done because of sin in the committing person's heart. The death penalty is death because it is the consequence to a law- which by the way, is well known. Everyone knows that if they are convicted of murder, they are likely to be executed. So if they choose to violate the law, they are accepting this consequence. Just because they may, or may not say "I'm sorry" afterwards, especially in the area of murder, the person they killed is still dead. They cannot undo it, neither can they retract the consequences. You get what you bargained for. If you commit a crime, you get the allotted punishment for it.

Edited December 2, 2005 by DaniJ87