satan and Yeshua referred to as morning star

[Leonard]

"EXCUSE ME, "Excuse me, but before we get in too big a rush here; where does the Bible ever tell us that 'Lucifer' and 'Satan' are the same being?"

That is a good question Leonard. I'd like to know where that idea came from myself.

Never heard that one being challenged before . . . what are you thinking, Leonard?

I am thinking the reference in Isaiah and Ezekiel are probably just far-flung poetic/prophetic imagery, and the passages refer to the literal Babylonian kings.

[nebula]

If that is so, then who would you say that Satan is, and where did he come from?

[yomotalking]

It is not mistake by the NIV, nor the NASB, nor any of the other 100+ modern english bibles. It was done with the full intention of misleading both christians and worldly people away from the Truth that can make them free. It is part of the occult/new age infiltration of the church. Satan know he cannot destroy the church so the next best thing is to join the church.

LT

Excuse me, but you think that the translators DELIBARATELY meant to decieve us?

"EXCUSE ME, EXCUSE ME!" (steps up to the microphone in the crowded room..... "Is this thing on? TESTING, TESTING" THUMP!!! THUMP!!!!

"Excuse me, but before we get in too big a rush here; where does the Bible ever tell us that 'Lucifer' and 'Satan' are the same being?"

Errrrr.......anyone?

Lemme get a drink of water.........

*sits down*

Now.

Lets see............anyone......

*sits waiting beside Leo*

[abbershay]

satan is know my many names.

[larryt]

"EXCUSE ME, EXCUSE ME!" (steps up to the microphone in the crowded room..... "Is this thing on? TESTING, TESTING" THUMP!!! THUMP!!!!

"Excuse me, but before we get in too big a rush here; where does the Bible ever tell us that 'Lucifer' and 'Satan' are the same being?"

Why is it so hard to see that this is speaking about Satan.

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

First of all, how could the king of Babylon have ever been in heaven. We are told in Rev. 12:9 that the devil, Satan, the great red dragon, is cast down to the earth. Very simple.

Secondly, why was he cast out of heaven? Because he said 5 I wills in rebellion against God.

This cannot be a man for man has never been to heaven and therefore cannot fall from it. This must be referring to someone other than the king of Babylon.

Eze 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone [was] thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

Eze 28:14 Thou [art] the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee [so]: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

Eze 28:15 Thou [wast] perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Eze 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

In Ezekiel there all kinds of clues for us. What man was ever perfect/complete in beauty? When was any man other that Adam and Eve in Eden the garden of God? Other than the animals and Adam and Eve the only other entity was the serpent. Also referred to in Rev. as "that old serpent called the Devil and Satan." This king of Tyrus is also called an anointed cherub; This is an angelic being. And what man other than Jesus Christ was ever perfect/without blemish?

Leonard I don't see the problem. It is plain as day with me.

LT

[larryt]

It is not mistake by the NIV, nor the NASB, nor any of the other 100+ modern english bibles. It was done with the full intention of misleading both christians and worldly people away from the Truth that can make them free. It is part of the occult/new age infiltration of the church. Satan know he cannot destroy the church so the next best thing is to join the church.

LT

Excuse me, but you think that the translators DELIBERATELY meant to deceive us?

Hi yomo,

It is not the men themselves but the enemy of our souls that is behind the deception.

2Co 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

We are not to be ignorant of his devises. Sad to say that most have no idea how the enemy operates. Paul wasn't ignorant and we don't have to be.

2Co 2:11 Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.

The fight is not with flesh and blood but with spiritual beings. And only by keeping the armour on can we hope to stand against the wiles/schemes of the devil.

Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places].

Many of the people who are behind the new versions are only in it for the money. Many others who were not even saved were led about by the devil at his whim. Satan is DELIBERATELY deceiving people through those he controls.

2Ti 2:26 And [that] they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

LT

[Leonard]

Well Larry, you're more than welcome to make that assumption, but it is not clearly stated in the Scripture. Not saying you're wrong, but unless the Scripture comes out and says it, we shouldn't get so cock-sure about it.

The Hebrew prophets tended to speak in some very high-flung imagery, you know like saying the 'stars are all out of their courses' because Israel has been taken captive. Or saying the Babylonian armies 'never broke rank' (if they NEVER broke rank, they would do great at marching, but lousy and hand to hand combat!), or that the Assyrian's horses were as 'fast as leopards.' In the same way, the passage we're discussing, COULD BE just very high-flung imagery about the Babylonian king.

[apothanein kerdos]

I kind of go back and forth on this one...as for me...there isn't enough evidence either way. However, I do tend to lean further towards Leo's side that it was just hyperbole.

[aaronjm]

Why would Satan have anything to do with the scripture?? The new translations may not be perfect, but they are still proclaiming Yeshua as the Son of G-d, I doubt that Satan would have any part of this. Everyone is so quick to blame Satan for everything, Man would be evil even without Satan. There is a reference of Michael the Arch Angel not bringing a slanderous word against Satan when arguing over the body of Moses, who are we to do it??

Aaron

[larryt]

Why would Satan have anything to do with the scripture?? The new translations may not be perfect, but they are still proclaiming Yeshua as the Son of G-d, I doubt that Satan would have any part of this. Everyone is so quick to blame Satan for everything, Man would be evil even without Satan. There is a reference of Michael the Arch Angel not bringing a slanderous word against Satan when arguing over the body of Moses, who are we to do it??

Aaron

Hi Aaron,

If I might try to give you an answer to your questions.

Why would Satan have anything to do with the scripture??

1. He is mentioned in scripture.

2. He hates it, because it is the only way we can know that he exists and is trying to steal, kill, and destroy.

3. We are told to resist him.

1Pe 5:8