Choice of Denomination

[st. Worm]

OWWTLG,

Your method of dealing with questions you can't answer is to go back to your script much like the 14 year old JW. You are dragging out various "proof" text for questions I did not even ask. Now please follow this part carefully. Your definition of church means that you don't even know who else besides you is in your church since only God knows who the true believers are. In other words, if you only define church as the true believers, then you are defining church as only yourself since you really can't be certain of anyone else's status before God. You only know what others say but you can't judge their heart or can you? Do you preach to yourself, absolve your own sins, and serve the Sacraments (if you have any) to yourself since by definition your church can't really include anyone else but you? Please feel free to answer this question without your list of canned answers or biblical texts that don't apply. Thanks.

[MrSealedEternal]

Mr. SE,

Actually you have distorted what I said (imagine that). I said the church has authority, not the ultimate authority of Scripture. Unfortunately you want to classify all views but your own as "man made religion". Of course that view implies that you are superior to everyone else in your ability to interpret the Bible. I doubt that is the case. Martin Luther did not advocate a free for all where every man determines for himself what the Bible means. That is nothing more than religious anarchy what is what you appear to have. Your continued disparagement of Christ's Church is sad while still amazing. And make no mistake about it that is what you are doing.

The "church" doesn't have authority, Christ does. Christ is the head of His ekklesia, and He speaks to us through His Word. Men throughout history have misdefined who the ekklesia is in order to obtain power, and have often used this power in order to murder Christ's true ekklesia for trying to speak the truth because it was a threat to their power.

All religion is man made. Christianity is not a religion, but is a relationship with our Creator through faith in Him and His atonement for our transgressions of his laws. Religion is mans attempt to cover his own sins which cannot be done. At the garden of Eden, Adam and Eve tried to cover themselves with fig leaves, but God found their covering unacceptable and He covered them with animal skins to symbolize that shed blood is necessary to cover sins, and that only He can cover them.

Sacramental salvation is another of man's attempts to cover himself. The Bible says that you must trust in Christ alone, by His shedding of blood to atone for your sins. If you try to cover yourself with sacraments, God will find your covering unacceptable.

Christ is the head of the Church (ekklesia) and it is man's misdefinition of the word in order to steal that authority from Him that is sad and amazing. This is in fact the source of religious anarchy. When the "Church' recognized who the true authority was, there was no anarchy, but when man assumed that power is when millions were murdered in His name. He is my only authority by His Word , and if others followed that advice, the confusion could be ended.

Mr SE

[Pilgrim7]

St. worm,

A question:

If the Holy Spirits job is to lead all believers into all 'truth', why do all these 'believers' in all these 'churches' who are 'filled with the Spirit' have such divergent opinions of the truth after 2000 years of the 'leading of the Holy Spirit'. Is He really such a bad teacher, or does the fault lie elsewhere?

Scripture says:

1Cor 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and [that] there be no divisions among you; but [that] ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

Here we have a description of those led by the Spirit.

I can understand why people without the Holy Spirit would be in such confusion. Christianity today sounds more like politics and confusion than the unity implanted by the Holy Spirit.

God Bless,

Dennis

[nebula]

Can people ever agree on anything?

If you study the book of Acts, you can see that not even they could put a handle on agreement.

Even Paul and Barnabas split over a disagreement.

Redeemed through Christ or not, we are all still subject to the consequences of the Fall. "We see in a mirror dimly."

Honostly, we should not be in arms against each other over petty denominationalism.

. . . But I don't care what label you may wear

If you believe in Jesus, you belong with me

The bond we share is all I care to see

We can change the world forever if you will join with me

Join and sing

You're my brother, you're my sister

So take me by the hand

Together we will work

Until He comes

There's no foe that can defeat us

When we are walking side by side

As long as there is love

We will stand

"We Will Stand"

~sung by Russ Taff~

[Smalcald]

St. worm

There is a movement espoused by Harold Camping of Family radio which says that now is the time to come out of all Christian denominations or any organized Christian churches, he is obviously a bit strange. I like some of what he says actually, but unfortunately the looniness overrides his points, and of course he is unbiblical.

But I do see his infection kind of running around the internet and unfortunately in some evangelical circles, the idea that there is no such thing as a visible church on earth, that each believer should in effect be their own pope, their own authority to interpret as they will, and refuse to be under the authority of appointed deacons, elders ministers or any overseers as directed for believers in the bible. And in fact a unity of belief with any other group of Christians would be a sign that you don't have true belief, it gets stranger and stranger.

Of course it is great for radio and t.v. Ministries.

well to quote Martin Luther himself I am a man and I can error however inless I am convinced by scripture and by plain reason and not by Popes or councails who have so often contradicted themselves my consciece is held captive to the word of God to go against consciece is neither right or safe I CAN NOT AND WILL NOT RECANT..............

tell me what church or what authority did Martin Luther submit to

I will tell you by what authority he and we are to submit to, it is the Word of God.

please consider this point Smalcald if Martin Luther held to what you just now sugested there would have been no reformation, furthermore Martin did show that we are to take a stand even if it means we stand alone. please Smalcald give me your thoughts on this

Sure. I will try although I am not always clear in my own thoughts

What I was referring to was how we are to respond to the Word of God through worship. Luther never stood alone he always worshipped in unity with others, people who agreed with his beliefs about how the Church should be reformed, and sometimes people who did not. Consider what Luther did, did he say the heck with you, I am going home and being a Christian by myself. No he spent a good portion of his life cajoling, arguing and criticizing what he considered his church, and it was his church. He was excommunicated for this, and yes in this case we must follow the Word, but even then he continued to worship as a church in unity with other like minded Catholic reformers.

At times yes I think we may have to stand alone, and we should be ready for that. But this certainly is not the case today, we can and do have many people who are in the faith of Christ who believe the bible is the inerrant and infallible Word of God, we can and should worship together with these people as a visible church. If we believe the Word, we will try to do what it instructs, which is to worship together, to form visible churches and appoint overseers among us, deacons, bishops and elders who adhere to the Word of God. This is not to say we accept bad theology or heretical theology, but it is to say we need leadership, and that we are not to INTENTIONALLY be alone in our Christian walk. What I was referring to was charlatans like Camping who encourage people to isolate themselves from other Christians and hey give money to his radio show.

The New Testament is rarely addressed to individual Christians, it always addresses groups of Christians, Churches in each of the regions, and these churches all had leaders and overseers as Paul speaks of and gives directions for how those people should be appointed.

So yes worship with your conscience, find a Church who follows the word of God and then join and be part of that membership, and yes follow the legitimate leadership of that Church.

I of course see your point yes we dont want to isolate ones self however the church does not mediate between us and God, Jesus does so he say where 2 or 3 are gathered in my name there I will be, further more when we become a name brand believer then we no longer are bearing the brand mark Christian but rather the brand mark of what ever denomination one submits to that also means that if I where to claim to be a Catholic then i would also be in agreement with all their teachings, but if I Claim no alegance to any denomination but I am simply a Christian then I am submitting myself to Christ and I am in agreement with his teachings. besides each denominations has it's own clergy so wich one is being directed by God. would say all while all dispute one another. The bible clearly states that the Christ is the Head of every man. when we are willing to submit ourselves only to Christ only than and only than can we take a stand against the harisee that may exsist in what ever denomination that one might prescribe to over another.

Peace to you Smalcald

Peace to you also One who wishes.

I understand your points, particularly about the idea of being in a "name brand" relationship, a type of clubbishness, which actually can separate us from God. This is something we all must wrestle with and not fall prey to.

But God did not leave us alone, we were meant to be part of a group. Did you know that the word "member" is a Christian word that it came out of our faith into the English language? To be part of the Body of Believers with true faith is I think very important.

Our splitting has been the result of Satan. Satan has sown seeds of corruption, bad doctrine, and pride among us as believers; thus we disagree and form our own groups. In addition, I will probably get pounded for saying this, the fact is the bible is not always clear and is sometimes quite complex, so when we have a lack of clarity or complexity on some issues, people will go their own way on these issues. The bible is clear on the basics of our faith however.

One thing the bible does tell us to do is to appoint leaders among us, and we need to do that, it also tells us to be responsible to these leaders. We can't simply blow that part of scripture off, anymore than we can blow other parts of scripture off simply because they are hard. A denomination you are in, simply means you are a group of like minded believers it is simply a big house church where 2 or 3 are gathered, and following that denomination should be in perfect accordance with His will as shown in the Holy Bible, you should be convinced of that before joining any group of believers. The advantage of a denomination is that you know what you are getting into, you can really tell if they are in adherence with sound doctrine, other groups may not believe sound doctrine but because of their lack of organization or dominance by one strong personality, you would never know. In addition they often simply come and go, sifting like the wind, we need stability a place to take our children our grandchildren to learn and grow in the Word.

[st. Worm]

"If the Holy Spirits job is to lead all believers into all 'truth', why do all these 'believers' in all these 'churches' who are 'filled with the Spirit' have such divergent opinions of the truth after 2000 years of the 'leading of the Holy Spirit'. Is He really such a bad teacher, or does the fault lie elsewhere?"

I think the answer is in the three segments of sin that still affect even believers, our own sin, the devil and the world. Clearly no one church or individual has the perfect key to interpreting Scripture. We still look through the eyes of sinners even though the HS has opened our eyes to many things. The crucial thing we all know and believe if we are Christians is the simple foolish message of the Gospel. There are divisions in the church over many things but there can be no division or deviation there. Obviously God has allowed divisions to take place among believers and we should accept that without claiming to hold exclusive truth ourselves beyond that. That is the real danger in isolationist movements like home churching. The comet and ufo cults are also into exclusivity in a similarly dangerous way.

I believe the Lutheran Confessions provide the best understanding of the Bible but I don't believe only Lutherans are saved unlike those who accuse me of Babylonian whatever. Each week during worship I confess my sins of failure and acknowledge my lack of understanding and my insufficiency and receive the grace of absolution. I am thankful that I am counted as having perfect truth and obedience because of Christ even though I am a miserable failure. As Paschal (?) once said, a man's righteousness is better measured by his understanding of what a sinner he is than his so called advancement on the glory road (paraphrase).

[Iryssa]

Each week during worship I confess my sins of failure and acknowledge my lack of understanding and my insufficiency and receive the grace of absolution. I am thankful that I am counted as having perfect truth and obedience because of Christ even though I am a miserable failure. As Paschal (?) once said, a man's righteousness is better measured by his understanding of what a sinner he is than his so called advancement on the glory road (paraphrase).

Well said...I forget who I was talking to about this, but I think it was my Theology professor...anyhow, he paraphrased someone (if it was my Theo. professor, it would've been Tozer he was quoting), saying that those who recognize just how little they deserve heaven on their own merit are far closer to heaven than those who think it's owed to them. Basically, I'm saying (to myself as much as anyone) that I think we all need to realize we are all far less than perfect, that it is only by the grace of God that we can even call ourselves "Christians."

"In Christ alone [our] hope is found." Christ alone. It's not by denominational titles or 100% perfect doctrine that we may see heaven...it's by His grace.

[MrSealedEternal]

Can people ever agree on anything?

If you study the book of Acts, you can see that not even they could put a handle on agreement.

Even Paul and Barnabas split over a disagreement.

Redeemed through Christ or not, we are all still subject to the consequences of the Fall. "We see in a mirror dimly."

Honostly, we should not be in arms against each other over petty denominationalism.

First of all, Barnabas didn't start his own denomination, and secondly Paul strongly condemned him for his error.

Galatians 2:11-13 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision. The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy.

Denominationalism is not petty. Denominations are based on false teachings of men, and peoples attempts to stick together to defend them. Most of them teach gospel's that are contrary to scripture, and therefore anyone who believes what is taught in them is not saved. Christ's "ekklesia" is one united body under Him, and it is only the false teachings that have been accepted by denominations that have caused the split. His "ekklesia" can only unite in truth under Him, which requires the exposing of error. Eccumenicalism is Satan's plan to bring all of the pseudo-christian religions under the Antichrist.

Mr SE

[ONE WHO WISHES TO LOVE GOD]

St. worm

There is a movement espoused by Harold Camping of Family radio which says that now is the time to come out of all Christian denominations or any organized Christian churches, he is obviously a bit strange. I like some of what he says actually, but unfortunately the looniness overrides his points, and of course he is unbiblical.

But I do see his infection kind of running around the internet and unfortunately in some evangelical circles, the idea that there is no such thing as a visible church on earth, that each believer should in effect be their own pope, their own authority to interpret as they will, and refuse to be under the authority of appointed deacons, elders ministers or any overseers as directed for believers in the bible. And in fact a unity of belief with any other group of Christians would be a sign that you don't have true belief, it gets stranger and stranger.

Of course it is great for radio and t.v. Ministries.

well to quote Martin Luther himself I am a man and I can error however inless I am convinced by scripture and by plain reason and not by Popes or councails who have so often contradicted themselves my consciece is held captive to the word of God to go against consciece is neither right or safe I CAN NOT AND WILL NOT RECANT..............

tell me what church or what authority did Martin Luther submit to

I will tell you by what authority he and we are to submit to, it is the Word of God.

please consider this point Smalcald if Martin Luther held to what you just now sugested there would have been no reformation, furthermore Martin did show that we are to take a stand even if it means we stand alone. please Smalcald give me your thoughts on this

Sure. I will try although I am not always clear in my own thoughts

What I was referring to was how we are to respond to the Word of God through worship. Luther never stood alone he always worshipped in unity with others, people who agreed with his beliefs about how the Church should be reformed, and sometimes people who did not. Consider what Luther did, did he say the heck with you, I am going home and being a Christian by myself. No he spent a good portion of his life cajoling, arguing and criticizing what he considered his church, and it was his church. He was excommunicated for this, and yes in this case we must follow the Word, but even then he continued to worship as a church in unity with other like minded Catholic reformers.

At times yes I think we may have to stand alone, and we should be ready for that. But this certainly is not the case today, we can and do have many people who are in the faith of Christ who believe the bible is the inerrant and infallible Word of God, we can and should worship together with these people as a visible church. If we believe the Word, we will try to do what it instructs, which is to worship together, to form visible churches and appoint overseers among us, deacons, bishops and elders who adhere to the Word of God. This is not to say we accept bad theology or heretical theology, but it is to say we need leadership, and that we are not to INTENTIONALLY be alone in our Christian walk. What I was referring to was charlatans like Camping who encourage people to isolate themselves from other Christians and hey give money to his radio show.

The New Testament is rarely addressed to individual Christians, it always addresses groups of Christians, Churches in each of the regions, and these churches all had leaders and overseers as Paul speaks of and gives directions for how those people should be appointed.

So yes worship with your conscience, find a Church who follows the word of God and then join and be part of that membership, and yes follow the legitimate leadership of that Church.

I of course see your point yes we dont want to isolate ones self however the church does not mediate between us and God, Jesus does so he say where 2 or 3 are gathered in my name there I will be, further more when we become a name brand believer then we no longer are bearing the brand mark Christian but rather the brand mark of what ever denomination one submits to that also means that if I where to claim to be a Catholic then i would also be in agreement with all their teachings, but if I Claim no alegance to any denomination but I am simply a Christian then I am submitting myself to Christ and I am in agreement with his teachings. besides each denominations has it's own clergy so wich one is being directed by God. would say all while all dispute one another. The bible clearly states that the Christ is the Head of every man. when we are willing to submit ourselves only to Christ only than and only than can we take a stand against the harisee that may exsist in what ever denomination that one might prescribe to over another.

Peace to you Smalcald

Peace to you also One who wishes.

I understand your points, particularly about the idea of being in a "name brand" relationship, a type of clubbishness, which actually can separate us from God. This is something we all must wrestle with and not fall prey to.

But God did not leave us alone, we were meant to be part of a group. Did you know that the word "member" is a Christian word that it came out of our faith into the English language? To be part of the Body of Believers with true faith is I think very important.

Our splitting has been the result of Satan. Satan has sown seeds of corruption, bad doctrine, and pride among us as believers; thus we disagree and form our own groups. In addition, I will probably get pounded for saying this, the fact is the bible is not always clear and is sometimes quite complex, so when we have a lack of clarity or complexity on some issues, people will go their own way on these issues. The bible is clear on the basics of our faith however.

One thing the bible does tell us to do is to appoint leaders among us, and we need to do that, it also tells us to be responsible to these leaders. We can't simply blow that part of scripture off, anymore than we can blow other parts of scripture off simply because they are hard. A denomination you are in, simply means you are a group of like minded believers it is simply a big house church where 2 or 3 are gathered, and following that denomination should be in perfect accordance with His will as shown in the Holy Bible, you should be convinced of that before joining any group of believers. The advantage of a denomination is that you know what you are getting into, you can really tell if they are in adherence with sound doctrine, other groups may not believe sound doctrine but because of their lack of organization or dominance by one strong personality, you would never know. In addition they often simply come and go, sifting like the wind, we need stability a place to take our children our grandchildren to learn and grow in the Word.

Hello Smalcald I agree with what your saying up to 99.9 % this however is that .1 % I disagre with, see Smalcald this devieding our selves into veriosu denominations is not new to Chistianity but it had its beginning at the out set, please observe PAULs words on the matter. 1 CORINTHIANS 1. 11 - 13 For it has been told to me about you my brothers by Chloe that dissensions exsist among you. What I mean is that each of you say I belonge to Paul, But I to Apollos, But I to Cepheus, But I to Christ. The Christ exists divided. So this being called after this denomination or that is really much like what those were doing. further more their was given only one name that true followers of Christ were given under inspiration and that is Christian, no more no less This however is why I think that so many times we are urging one another into each ones own church as though being else where is not enough. Consider further please Smalcald the councicle given to the congergations in Revelations, as you observe most had things or teaching that were not consistent with the Christian faith, however all must conform to Christ, and those that would not would be removed, also please note what the spirit says, Let the one who has an ear hear what the spirit is saying to the congregations. So Smalcald when we are willing to bare our denominational brand marks we are accutley dividing our selves from each other.

You have my brotherly love Smalcald May God be with you

[st. Worm]

The great strawman of this entire thread is that those in denominations are not really following Christ and His Word while others are. There is no basis for this silliness. If one believes his denomination has a system of doctrine that more clearly follows what the Bible really teaches how is that following the teaching of man and not God? (and please no more canned programmed answers using Greek terms you may not understand)

As far as blaming denominations for lack of unity in the church I would argue there is more disunity among believers NOT in denominational churches than those who are ranging from the non-denom. Campbellite rebaptizers to the flying saucer cults. Paul and Jesus do not teach mere unity. They have much to say about correct doctrine and while the term denomination may not appear in the Bible the term doctrine does and denominations are nothing more than organizing with others who believe in proper doctrine as the Bible teaches just as you so called non-denomination types do.