Choice of Denomination

[MrSealedEternal]

1 Peter 3

"He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also

[DaniJ87]

WHAT I DISAGREE WITH

is althoug I do agree that both the Jehovahs Witnesses and Mormon denominations are not correct in many of the teachings, neither the establishment nor their relincwishment of their being Christians can be determined in the belief in the trinity. further more God deiceds who are his and who are not, in addition conclusive interpetation belongs to God not man.

If your are confused about whether or not JW and mormons are Christians,

read the book

"Out of Mormonism" by Judy Robertson. You can find it on Amazon.com.

Also try a simple google search- you can come up with scathes of results about the history or mormonism, etc....

it is a cult. Not a denomination. Read up a bit more on the subject, and you will probably agree.

You do not need the trinity to decide whether or not they are Christians- they do not believe in salvation by faith, they do not believe that you can go to heaven without following every single one of their rules, their beliefs have changed many times throughout history- every time an archaeological finding disproved something they had formerly claimed, they changed their claims... they even formerly believed in blood sacrifice- killing someone who was penitent so that their soul would be saved.

nothing I have ever read about their cult was even possible to be Christian. I get chills reading about their beliefs...

Did you know that they are condemned if they read something not approved by their church?

good luck on your research...

what do you have against the trinity, anyway- and how does that pertain to the subject of the thread, in the first place?

[st. Worm]

"You need to trust in Christ alone, so that he will baptize you with His Spirit, but as long as you trust yourself, you will not be born again."

A very serious error revealing Pelagianism which has been condemned by the church. We do not become born again by anything we do or don't do. We are born again by water and the Spirit by God's grace.

Further you fail to understand the reference to the OT flood as a shadow and type of what was to come to fulfillment in water baptism - salvation. That is the message of Peter.

None of the three passages mentioned talked about a mere baptism of the HS. All refer to water baptism.

Ephes 4:5 - one Lord, one faith, one baptism. I repeat one baptism, not one by the HS followed by a second with water as you apparently believe.

Have a good evening MR. SE.

[MrSealedEternal]

"You need to trust in Christ alone, so that he will baptize you with His Spirit, but as long as you trust yourself, you will not be born again."

A very serious error revealing Pelagianism which has been condemned by the church. We do not become born again by anything we do or don't do. We are born again by water and the Spirit by God's grace.

Further you fail to understand the reference to the OT flood as a shadow and type of what was to come to fulfillment in water baptism - salvation. That is the message of Peter.

None of the three passages mentioned talked about a mere baptism of the HS. All refer to water baptism.

Ephes 4:5 - one Lord, one faith, one baptism. I repeat one baptism, not one by the HS followed by a second with water as you apparently believe.

Have a good evening MR. SE.

I had never heard of Pelagius until you brought that word up, but a quick skimming of his doctrines in the Catholic Encyclopedia has convinced me that he and I have little or nothing in common.

God says we are born again by listening to the gospel and believing, so we do have to do something.

Ephesians 1:13-14 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

That's what God tells us through His apostle Paul, regardless of what Mr Pelagius may think about the matter.

Again, the water in the flood represented destruction. The water in water baptism represents our immersement into Christ's death and resurrection, where we are spiritually reborn through His substitutiary atonement. The arc was probably representative of God's salvation, but the water definately represented his judgment.

Water baptism was meant to symbolize the real baptism of Jesus Christ which is with His Holy Spirit. His baptism is what saves us, and it is by listening and believing.

Luke 3:16 John answered and said to them all, "As for me, I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Christ did not die to immerse us with water. He died to immerse us with His Spirit. If you trust in water to save you, you will be immersed with fire. The example of Cornelius proves that immersion with the Holy Spirit comes by listening to the message and believing. He and the others were born again before Peter finished preaching, and long before they made it to the water.

Act 10:43,44,47 "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins." While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?"

Mr SE

[nebula]

Can people ever agree on anything?

If you study the book of Acts, you can see that not even they could put a handle on agreement.

Even Paul and Barnabas split over a disagreement.

Redeemed through Christ or not, we are all still subject to the consequences of the Fall. "We see in a mirror dimly."

Honostly, we should not be in arms against each other over petty denominationalism.

First of all, Barnabas didn't start his own denomination, and secondly Paul strongly condemned him for his error.

Galatians 2:11-13 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision. The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy.

I was referring to their disagreement over John Mark. Because Barnabas wanted to give John Mark a second chance and Paul did not, they split after having a huge fight about it.

Again, my point on that example was on the difficulty even believers have in agreeing on everything.

If these two strong men of God coldn't agree on the Lord's will for bringing back John mark into the ministry, how are whole groups of people ever going to find agreement in how to run a church service or develop doctrine over nit-picky details?

Denominationalism is not petty. Denominations are based on false teachings of men, and peoples attempts to stick together to defend them. Most of them teach gospel's that are contrary to scripture, and therefore anyone who believes what is taught in them is not saved. Christ's "ekklesia" is one united body under Him, and it is only the false teachings that have been accepted by denominations that have caused the split. His "ekklesia" can only unite in truth under Him, which requires the exposing of error. Eccumenicalism is Satan's plan to bring all of the pseudo-christian religions under the Antichrist.

I wold think all these divided denominations would actually hinder people from falling into one religion under the Anti-Christ.

Because then they would have to be united.

You guys are all missing my point. Within the fundamental beliefs of most denominations is a "gospel" that contradicts the true gospel.

OK, I'll bite - please clarify how the Baptists, Lutherans, Pentecostals, and Mennonites (for examples) contradict the "true" Gospel?

That is not another path to the same God, it is a religious system of works created by man to cover his own sins, which is in fact a rejection of Jesus Christ. Anyone who believes they will be saved by being good, keeping commandments, "sacraments" , Sabbath keeping, because they can speak in tongues, or any other good works of their own doing, have rejected Jesus Christ as their Saviour, and therefore are not saved. Most denominations teach some form of salvation by ones own efforts, which vary from denomination to denomination, but all are false and will insure that anyone who's faith is in it will spend eternity in Hell.

OK . . . I grew up in a Lutheran church, attended Baptist summer Bible school, joined a few interdenominational charismatic churches, fellowshiped with Mennonites and Nazurites and Pentecostals and a whole lot of other denominations I never heard of before and heard of before while in college . . .

And I know none of us who made the claims as you just have above.

Being good does not get you saved.

Keeping commands and sacraments and Sabbaths don't get you saved.

Speaking in tongues is a gift given after you have been saved.

I have no ideea what you mean by "most denominations teaching salvation by ones' own effort."

For I have NOT encountered this.

[nebula]

OK . . . let's not turn this thread into a baptism debate, OK?

***

Can people ever agree on anything?

If you study the book of Acts, you can see that not even they could put a handle on agreement.

Even Paul and Barnabas split over a disagreement.

Redeemed through Christ or not, we are all still subject to the consequences of the Fall. "We see in a mirror dimly."

Honostly, we should not be in arms against each other over petty denominationalism.

First of all, Barnabas didn't start his own denomination, and secondly Paul strongly condemned him for his error.

Galatians 2:11-13 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision. The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy.

I was referring to their disagreement over John Mark. Because Barnabas wanted to give John Mark a second chance and Paul did not, they split after having a huge fight about it.

Again, my point on that example was on the difficulty even believers have in agreeing on everything.

If these two strong men of God coldn't agree on the Lord's will for bringing back John mark into the ministry, how are whole groups of people ever going to find agreement in how to run a church service or develop doctrine over nit-picky details?

Denominationalism is not petty. Denominations are based on false teachings of men, and peoples attempts to stick together to defend them. Most of them teach gospel's that are contrary to scripture, and therefore anyone who believes what is taught in them is not saved. Christ's "ekklesia" is one united body under Him, and it is only the false teachings that have been accepted by denominations that have caused the split. His "ekklesia" can only unite in truth under Him, which requires the exposing of error. Eccumenicalism is Satan's plan to bring all of the pseudo-christian religions under the Antichrist.

I wold think all these divided denominations would actually hinder people from falling into one religion under the Anti-Christ.

Because then they would have to be united.

You guys are all missing my point. Within the fundamental beliefs of most denominations is a "gospel" that contradicts the true gospel.

OK, I'll bite - please clarify how the Baptists, Lutherans, Pentecostals, and Mennonites (for examples) contradict the "true" Gospel?

That is not another path to the same God, it is a religious system of works created by man to cover his own sins, which is in fact a rejection of Jesus Christ. Anyone who believes they will be saved by being good, keeping commandments, "sacraments" , Sabbath keeping, because they can speak in tongues, or any other good works of their own doing, have rejected Jesus Christ as their Saviour, and therefore are not saved. Most denominations teach some form of salvation by ones own efforts, which vary from denomination to denomination, but all are false and will insure that anyone who's faith is in it will spend eternity in Hell.

OK . . . I grew up in a Lutheran church, attended Baptist summer Bible school, joined a few interdenominational charismatic churches, fellowshiped with Mennonites and Nazurites and Pentecostals and a whole lot of other denominations I never heard of before and heard of before while in college . . .

And I know none of us who made the claims as you just have above.

Being good does not get you saved.

Keeping commands and sacraments and Sabbaths don't get you saved.

Speaking in tongues is a gift given after you have been saved.

I have no ideea what you mean by "most denominations teaching salvation by ones' own effort."

For I have NOT encountered this.

[TenderEyes]

I totally agree. I just wished more Christians felt the same way.

I agree too!

If we. . . (the Body of Christ) are focused on him, and being led by His Spirit. . . it wouldn't matter what "denomination" we are.

We would have pure untainted fellowship with each-other as we fellowship with HIM!

If WE are FOCUSED ON HIM!!!

(I hope that comes out right. . . . I have the hardest time saying what I mean.)

[ONE WHO WISHES TO LOVE GOD]

OWWTLG,

Your method of dealing with questions you can't answer is to go back to your script much like the 14 year old JW. You are dragging out various "proof" text for questions I did not even ask. Now please follow this part carefully. Your definition of church means that you don't even know who else besides you is in your church since only God knows who the true believers are. In other words, if you only define church as the true believers, then you are defining church as only yourself since you really can't be certain of anyone else's status before God. You only know what others say but you can't judge their heart or can you? Do you preach to yourself, absolve your own sins, and serve the Sacraments (if you have any) to yourself since by definition your church can't really include anyone else but you? Please feel free to answer this question without your list of canned answers or biblical texts that don't apply. Thanks.

Worm I am only to happy to answer this however before I do Worm their is something I have to say to you and I hope you will receive it with the spirit it is intended. Worm it is my belief that the designers of this forum desigened it for the purpose so that people can discuss with one another their faith a place where we can come to enjoy each others fellowship grow in our understanding by our sharpening one another, encourage one another and to become a community whose unity is built out love for Jesus and our love for one another. However Worm I have noticed a negativity in your posts since I observe that they are laced with disrespect, aqusetory, talking down to others and a real bitterness. Worm there is nothing wrong with your expressing yourself on your take on what ever the subject maybe however I ask you that you do this in a way of brotherly love and mutual respect since these would be more in the spirit of what this forum is intened. Now to your questions first you say

Your definition of church means that you don't even know who else besides you is in your church since only God knows who the true believers are. In other words, if you only define church as the true believers, then you are defining church as only yourself since you really can't be certain of anyone else's status before God.

yes and no who is the Church are made up of believers who are determined by God but are not beyond a measure of destuingishabillity, their fruitage will bare them to be true followers or not however this ultimately is determined not by me or you but by God

then you are defining church as only yourself since you really can't be certain of anyone else's status before God.

first off you are taking me out of context secondly Worm are you saying that you do know anothers status before God so as to say they are believer simply based off the premise that they fallow the same denomination as you. would you not agree that every one will be judged acording to their obedience to Gods commands faith in the Son and a worship with a unhypocricle love........... what say you YES or NO? WORM

You only know what others say but you can't judge their heart or can you?

This is so obvious it does not deserve a reply!!!

Do you preach to yourself

Nope I use forms such as this and am willing to attend most churches except those who I feel are really twisting the Word. But I do not belong to any denomination other than simply to be a Christian. And I preach to any who will listen not to draw them to this denomination or that but to draw them to Jesus...........

absolve your own sins, and serve the Sacraments (if you have any) to yourself

NOPE again Worm

since by definition your church can't really include anyone else but you?

That is your your Definition and as to the application of the scriptures Which one do you say I have miss applied also for that given scripture give me your understanding of that scripture and how it is you say I have miss aplplied it.

One last thing Worm I dont mind discussing or debating with you but I will not attack your standing with God for regaudless whether you consider me as a Brother in Christ I do you. So in that spirit let us both be wrong but God be right........

Peace to you Worm Um Yummy I like Worms !!!

[st. Worm]

Mr SE quote:

"God says we are born again by listening to the gospel and believing, so we do have to do something."

Thanks for MR SE for honestly revealing that it is actually YOU who believe in good works and man made religion accomplishing something before God. Your statement "so we have to so something" regarding our new birth sums up your entire theology. Jesus used the idea of birth for a reason it seems and that was to show that our new birth and regeneration is something we have absolutely no control over but instead it is something that is done to us by the Holy Spirit though Word and Sacrament. THAT is grace.

[st. Worm]

Thanks for your admonishment OWW and I will attempt to do better. Regarding what you have said in order to save time I will focus on your points I disagree with.

With regard to judgement, yes we will all be judged on our failure to keep the Law. However those who trust in Christ will be counted as Christ himself. Perfect and not guilty on all counts. Our failures will not be counted against us. Don't mean to accuse but you appear to be confusing Law and Gospel in what you said. I really would like to you to address this point more than any other because I think its important to keep the Gospel clear and apart from fruits of the Gospel in one's life. Thanks to God he does not grant me entrance to Heaven based on my obedience or lack of it!

Second, I still think your worship pattern is not what God intends since you are still freelancing with regard to church. Although there are many reasons I say this let me just concentrate on one of them. When you jump from church to church with no membership status, who are you accountable too? I know you will say God but the Bible reveals the power of the church to discipline members who have fallen into sin in certain ways. Aren't you afraid you may miss the grace of church discipline in your life as a believer?

Further I don't think you have disputed the points I was making regarding your view that the visible church is unimportant or irrelevant.

Take care,

SW