Jew or Gentile?

[deadman1204]

actually, every year when they made the sacrifice at the temple for the sins of the entire nation, it was only for the Jews, not the sins of the whole world.

It sounds harsh, but there is the same thing today. There are many that live thier whole lives nearing hearing Jesus' name. I just think of 9 romans in those instances. Who are we to tell the potter what to make the clay.

[elkieDannsa' Air An Drochaid]

True, we have become new creatures in Christ.

According to the early century Christians preserved writings, "Christianity has not embraced Judiasm. But, Judiasm has embraced Christianity. " ( I would need to reread to remember who said that) Nothing is more Messianiac than having the Messiah !!

[Guest shiloh357]

actually, every year when they made the sacrifice at the temple for the sins of the entire nation, it was only for the Jews, not the sins of the whole world.

It sounds harsh, but there is the same thing today. There are many that live thier whole lives nearing hearing Jesus' name. I just think of 9 romans in those instances. Who are we to tell the potter what to make the clay.

Wrong. During the Festival Sukkot (Tabernacles), there were seventy bulls sacrificed during the seven day festival. It was believed that at the time of the Exodus there were seventy nations, and thus one bull for each. Because of that, the festival Sukkot was also called the "Festival Of The Nations." It actually had many Titles: "Festival Of Joy," "Festival of Light," "Festival Of Water Pouring," and so forth. It was the most lavish of all the annual Festivals.

So yes, they did have sacrifices for the nations.

[aaronjm]

The same spiritual blessings enjoyed by Israel are promised to "the stranger" who lays hold upon the Lord's covenant. (Isa. 56:3-7). Even in the land the same inheritance is appointed to "the stranger sojourning in any of the tribes of Israel." (Ezek. 47:22, 23). Exaltation, except as placing in a position for higher and greater service, is not more contemplated in the Old Testament for Israel than it is for Christians in the New (Luke 22:25, 26).

The Birthright or heirship to the Promises made to the Fathers was given to the GENTILES in a way in which it was never bestowed upon the people called Jews. Jacob had the birthright which his brother despised; and when he alienated it from Reuben, his own firstborn, he transferred it to the sons of Joseph (1 Chron. 5:1, 2), especially to Ephraim, the younger (Gen. 48:13-20), whose posterity he contemplated as "Gentiles" when blessing him through the cross, saying "His seed shall become a multitude of nations, - or as the same passage is translated in Rom. 11:26, "Fullness of the Gentiles." As distinguished even from his own brother Manasseh, and therefore much more from the Jews, Ephraim was to become "a multitude of nations," or Gentiles, who were to inherit the promises, and obtain and minister the blessing to their brethren. "The multitude of nations," or Gentiles who were to come of Ephraim, having been brought into the promised blessing, "so all ISRAEL - the tribes of Israel his companions - " shall be saved." (Ezek. 37:16-19; Rom. 11:25; Gen. 48:19, 20.)

[aaronjm]

[apothanein kerdos]

You're right....all the promises made to the Jews no longer apply to them, but the church. Just like God is going to call us back to Himself (even though we are already a part of Him...), restore the land of Israel (even though we've citizens of Heaven....), bring us in from the nations (even though we are told to go out to the nations...).............actually.....no.......Israel is still chosen and has unfufilled prophecy yet and the Church didn't take her place.

[aaronjm]

can you further explain that to me?? What unfufilled prophecies are you talking about?? Another question I have for you, how would you go about explaining that Yeshua fullfilled the Torah, I love embracing my Jewish heritage at this church, but they always refer me to "The law will not pass away untill heaven and earth are destroyed." I show them Galations, well all of Pauls writings, do you have any other suggestions? Thanks

[deadman1204]

You're right....all the promises made to the Jews no longer apply to them, but the church. Just like God is going to call us back to Himself (even though we are already a part of Him...), restore the land of Israel (even though we've citizens of Heaven....), bring us in from the nations (even though we are told to go out to the nations...).............actually.....no.......Israel is still chosen and has unfufilled prophecy yet and the Church didn't take her place.

Are we talking about the same old testament? God has never and can never remove or change his word. That is the corner stone of Christianity. God changes not, and there is NOTHING man can do to have the Lord reject him. Nothing. Ever.

God still has plans only for the Jews and not general christians. Revelations even speaks about songs that will only be taught to children of isreal, not all saved men. There is a great differance between the children of Isreal, and christans in general. Many dislike this idea because the bible tells us of special rewards for the Jews that are not for any other believers. Personally, I'm happy for those the lord is choosing to show more favor towards, but not jealous. This is the Lords way to glorify himself. What should it matter to us? Its his option to do as he pleases.

[Guest shiloh357]

can you further explain that to me?? What unfufilled prophecies are you talking about?? Another question I have for you, how would you go about explaining that Yeshua fullfilled the Torah, I love embracing my Jewish heritage at this church, but they always refer me to "The law will not pass away untill heaven and earth are destroyed." I show them Galations, well all of Pauls writings, do you have any other suggestions? Thanks

Well, it is true that not one yod or even the smallest stroke of a letter will pass away from from the Torah until all has been fulfilled. Galatians and the rest of Paul's letters do not contradict that. All has not been fulfilled. Nowhere does Paul abrogate the Torah.

Are you not familiar with all of the unfulfilled prophecies concerning national Israel's rebirth, physical restortion and subsequent spiritual restoration??? We are seeing this process occur in our day. (Ezekiel 36, 37; Zechariah 12, Amos 9:9)

There is much left to be fulfilled.

Even in the land the same inheritance is appointed to "the stranger sojourning in any of the tribes of Israel." (Ezek. 47:22, 23).

Yes, but this is during the millenium. Check the context.

Ephraim was to become "a multitude of nations," or Gentiles, who were to inherit the promises, and obtain and minister the blessing to their brethren. "The multitude of nations," or Gentiles who were to come of Ephraim, having been brought into the promised blessing, "so all ISRAEL - the tribes of Israel his companions - " shall be saved." (Ezek. 37:16-19; Rom. 11:25; Gen. 48:19, 20.)

Looks like you are caught up in the old Ephramite error.

[nebula]

You're right....all the promises made to the Jews no longer apply to them, but the church. Just like God is going to call us back to Himself (even though we are already a part of Him...), restore the land of Israel (even though we've citizens of Heaven....), bring us in from the nations (even though we are told to go out to the nations...).............actually.....no.......Israel is still chosen and has unfufilled prophecy yet and the Church didn't take her place.

Are we talking about the same old testament?

Check his last line - he was being sarcastic.

You two are actually on the same page.

God has never and can never remove or change his word. That is the corner stone of Christianity. God changes not, and there is NOTHING man can do to have the Lord reject him. Nothing. Ever.

God still has plans only for the Jews and not general christians. Revelations even speaks about songs that will only be taught to children of isreal, not all saved men. There is a great differance between the children of Isreal, and christans in general. Many dislike this idea because the bible tells us of special rewards for the Jews that are not for any other believers. Personally, I'm happy for those the lord is choosing to show more favor towards, but not jealous. This is the Lords way to glorify himself. What should it matter to us? Its his option to do as he pleases.

aaron -

When you read Revelation, when it mentions Jews and the tribes of Israel, do you take these literally as "Jews" and the "tribes of Israel", or do you interpret them as symbolic for all believers?

Keep in mind that John who penned Revelation was a Jew, and the 7 churches were in the Gentile nations. The early church was filled with controversy over Jews trying to make Jews out of Gentiles in their conversion to Messiah. So, why would John have called the Gentile believers "Jews"?

Likewise, what does it mean to you when Jesus mentioned Jerusalem being trampled under foot by the Gentiles "until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled"?