Salvation, Faith, Baptism

[kittylover0991]

lol... no no no... I am so sorry.. that is not what i meant.. I meant about a particular statment made earlier.. surrounding the statemtn "so can it". I meant that fact that we were starting to argue and not "discuss" and really, we were starting to get a bit too personal in some of the comments.. not implying that one who is baptised as a baby isn't a Christian.. that is a different can of worms I am sorry that it came out as meaning such.. I was typing while you were.. I am so sorry..

[kittylover0991]

"Um, not to be argumentative Worm, but if you look back in history, baptism of infants didn't start until the 3rd century A.D.

That is factually untrue. I just told you about the testimony of Polycarp who was way before then. Unless you believed John lived 250 years or more. I guess you are also assuming the household baptism in the Bible did not include infants. That's quite an assumption.

Two things..

First... "household baptism".. what do you mean?

Second, where does it say specifically in the bible that babies were baptised. If I am thinking clearly about what you mean by "household" baptism.. how is it known that there were even babies in the house..

[st. Worm]

"Could you possibly give one example of a baby baptism in the bible?"

In addition to the household baptisms in the new church, Jesus himself says to baptize those in all nations and not to prevent the little children from coming to him. He does not exclude infants at any time.

Peter in his sermon says the promise of salvation is for you and your children. Certainly babies, even unborn ones can have faith in our Lord, unless you just don't believe the account in the Bible of John the Baptizer's mother when he expressed joy at his Savior even in her womb.

No one passage says baptize infants just as no one passage says don't baptize infants but only a fundamentalist interprets scripture in such a way. The history provided in the Gosples and Acts and the rich theology of Paul and Peter clearly teach the true meaning and effect of baptism for those receiving it.

However there are many truths and ideas expressed in the Bible that are not specifically addressed the way you seem to think they are. Even the term Trinity exists no where in the Bible but do you also deny that?

[kittylover0991]

"Wow.. I think I just opened a bigger can of worms that I had actually expected from a Board of "Christians" *hint hint*"

Wow Kitty. Are you by quoting the term Christians to judge as unbelievers all who were baptized as infants in Christ's church. Why not address the questions and points I make rather accuse and judge. Please tell me about your study of church history or systematic theology that has brought such insight to you.

ok.. I'll open the next can of worms

First.. judge... I don't mean to judge.. if that is really what I am doing...

Second... does not the term Christian mean "Christ-like"? Not to mention, if I am not mistaken, one becomes a "Christian" at salvation.. not baptism. I became a "Christian" when I accepted Christ.. not when I was baptised. So, if you want to carry that as to say that I said, "when one is baptised and not saved then they are not a Christian" go right on ahead If you want to say that I said, "When someone is baptised as a baby that they are not a Christian" then i completley agree. Babies dont' understand yet what sin is. I believe that if a babies dies, then they will go to heaven because they don't understand right from wrong. I believe that it is when you are capable of understanding right from wrong and capable of accepting Christ, that you are held responsible for that sin.. i guess is the way to say it. What I mean is, babies arent' capable yet of understanding or being able to repent of that sin and neither are many children/adults with disabilities of different kinds.

I don't beleive that babies can get saved at their age becuase they cannot understand. Please forgive me for being so repetitive, but I am trying ot figure out how to explain what I am trying ot say without opening another "can of worms".

[st. Worm]

"If I am thinking clearly about what you mean by "household" baptism.. how is it known that there were even babies in the house.."

Precisely. And how is it known that there were not infants in these households? Perhaps these were the only two households in the area that contained no infants (lol!). I think to assume there were no infants present or that these were the only households given these instructions requires a whole lot more assumption than what you are asking of me.

[kittylover0991]

"Could you possibly give one example of a baby baptism in the bible?"

In addition to the household baptisms in the new church, Jesus himself says to baptize those in all nations and not to prevent the little children from coming to him. He does not exclude infants at any time.

Peter in his sermon says the promise of salvation is for you and your children. Certainly babies, even unborn ones can have faith in our Lord, unless you just don't believe the account in the Bible of John the Baptizer's mother when he expressed joy at his Savior even in her womb.

No one passage says baptize infants just as no one passage says don't baptize infants but only a fundamentalist interprets scripture in such a way. The history provided in the Gosples and Acts and the rich theology of Paul and Peter clearly teach the true meaning and effect of baptism for those receiving it.

However there are many truths and ideas expressed in the Bible that are not specifically addressed the way you seem to think they are. Even the term Trinity exists no where in the Bible but do you also deny that?

Whoops. Sorry, once again typing when you were also

Ok, Peter said that baptism was available for "you and your children" but didn't Peter also say to repent first of your sins?

Ok, there might not be a passage that says either or, yet.. we chose sides.. this is fustrating..

Trinity? The term "trinity" itself is not in there.. but the bible clearly talks about the trinity.

"I am my Father are one"

Furthermore, I know there is one is the later part of the new testament.. I am just trying ot locate it.. sorry..

[kittylover0991]

Sorry.. I found the verses and their references..

Jhn 10:30 I and [my] Father are one.

1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

[kittylover0991]

"If I am thinking clearly about what you mean by "household" baptism.. how is it known that there were even babies in the house.."

Precisely. And how is it known that there were not infants in these households? Perhaps these were the only two households in the area that contained no infants (lol!). I think to assume there were no infants present or that these were the only households given these instructions requires a whole lot more assumption than what you are asking of me.

I am sorry, my statements on this particular matter are being almost nonsense as I do not even know where the term "household baptism" is in the bible and have never actually studied its context. I am sorry that I am speaking out of ignorance.

[nebula]

"Do you have such a memory?"

Indeed I do. I was baptized as an adult in a fundamentalist church after confessing faith. I was not baptized as an infant. It was a special day. However I won't back away from my point about how we know God and it is not by our feelings and emotions both which carry the baggage of sin.

First of all, if you think I was claiming my knowing of God to be based on my feelings, you completely missed what I was saying.

Let me ask you, when you were baptised, was it to you more like kissing the Lord or more like handshaking Him?

Nor will I back away from the biblical truth about infant baptism. Scripture and the earliest recorded history of the church from St. Polycarp (a student of the Apostle John) testify about infant baptism. The anabaptist movement was some 1400 years later. If you think infant baptism in Christianity was something instituted by Rome you are sadly mistaken. After 2000 years of infant baptism, the burden of proof for changing that is on credo baptists. They have provided nothing either in Scripture or historic practice that advances their point.

I don't know what Polycarp said.

But as far as baptism, I go back to what Scripture says with regards to it going hand-in-hand with repentance.

Repentance is not something an infant is capable of doing.

I do not know what you mean by "biblical truth about infant baptism."

Nor do I see how "Let the little children come to Me," has to do with baptism. Jesus wasn't baptising at the time. And infant baptism is not the child coming, but the parents turning over.

And if infant baptism does what has been claimed - does the evidence testify this to be so? Or is there a high fall-away rate among those who were baptised as infants but not required to come to their own faith?

As for household baptism, it is an assumption to claim that infants were in the household at the time.

If me and my extended family (relatives) were to be put into one household, there wouldn't be a single infant among us.

[susansduval]

Thank you all for your welcomes! I am glad i joined this board!

As far as the Baptism goes I was saved a long time ago (well not that long! 6 months or so) anyway I don't believe Baptizm saves you, Baptism is something you do to bury your old life and come up new. I was Baptized as an infant too, yet never raised anywhere near a church. Never even started reading the Bible til I was 44 years old!

I also believe that infants are born without sin therefore they need not be foregiven! It's when we get old enough to sin (whatever that age may be) that we make the the choice to live our lives in a Godly mannor. It is a conscience choice to change. My children have attended a Baptist Church since they were very small (my next door neighbor took them) and at their church you don't get Baptized until you are old enough to make the decision to follow God on your own (about 12 yr old).

So I guess what I am saying is, it does not matter if we are Baptized, although the Bible strongly suggests, if we repent, ask for forgiveness, and accept the Lord as our Savior we will, in fact, be saved.