Salvation, Faith, Baptism

[Guest shiloh357]

"Well, if you bother to read the text, it is talking about the entirely unrepentant. It is talking about a certain type of people, not the mindset of the entire human race. You are the one who needs to read your Bible and reconsider. Not all sinners fit the description of Romans chapter one. Better luck next time."

You should consider reading the entire letter. Paul says we know of God and we are naturally very religious yet that knowledge does not give us the ability to honor God. Paul is clearly talking about humanity. Not even the worst Bible commentary would agree with what you are saying.

Wrong. I don't have to read the entire letter. Paul is talking about certain irretrievably wicked people that God gave over to a reprobate mind. That is not a description of the entire human race.

The bottom line is that you argue that we cannot know God through creation, and Romans 1 says He can be known through what He has made.

[st. Worm]

Wrong. I don't have to read the entire letter. Paul is talking about certain irretrievably wicked people that God gave over to a reprobate mind. That is not a description of the entire human race.

The bottom line is that you argue that we cannot know God through creation, and Romans 1 says He can be known through what He has made."

But dear friend he then goes on to say that the knowledge we have is twisted and useless because of our sin. If you only read bits and pieces of the the Bible you are bound to get it wrong. You are in disagreement with every credible interpreter of Scripture that I can think of. You think too highly of youself if you think you are not included in the Fall. Paul says God has condemned us all both Jew and Gentile and makes a very persuasive argument. Read it and believe it.

[Smalcald]

The only way to know God is through His Word and the Holy Spirit, every other way is false, all are condemned outside of faith in what Christ has done.

Infants have faith, children have faith, teenagers have faith, we cannot define who has faith and who does not based on knowledge, mental capacity or some sort of outward "ritual" or work or some sort of canned "salvation experience" or say it is not until some time of the "age of accountability" none of those terms or concepts are found in the bible, but are humans grasping at human definitions of a mystery.

In fact Christ tells us that we should have faith like little children, not well-formed theologically driven adults.

Thus Christ Himself claims children have faith.

[kittylover0991]

Wrong. I don't have to read the entire letter. Paul is talking about certain irretrievably wicked people that God gave over to a reprobate mind. That is not a description of the entire human race.

The bottom line is that you argue that we cannot know God through creation, and Romans 1 says He can be known through what He has made."

But dear friend he then goes on to say that the knowledge we have is twisted and useless because of our sin. If you only read bits and pieces of the the Bible you are bound to get it wrong. You are in disagreement with every credible interpreter of Scripture that I can think of. You think too highly of youself if you think you are not included in the Fall. Paul says God has condemned us all both Jew and Gentile and makes a very persuasive argument. Read it and believe it.

Worm, I am lost as to what you are arguing at this point. Are you saying that we cannot understand the things of God because our "knowledge is twisted and useless because of our sin"? Paul, there, was talking about earthly wisdom(I think I know what you are arguing). If you look over in Psalms David has a personal relationship with God. He says, "Oh God thou art MY God". David talks about getting HEAVENLY WISDOM from God God also says that we can know that God is who He says He is if we just look around us at creation

[kittylover0991]

The only way to know God is through His Word and the Holy Spirit, every other way is false, all are condemned outside of faith in what Christ has done.

Infants have faith, children have faith, teenagers have faith, we cannot define who has faith and who does not based on knowledge, mental capacity or some sort of outward "ritual" or work or some sort of canned "salvation experience" or say it is not until some time of the "age of accountability" none of those terms or concepts are found in the bible, but are humans grasping at human definitions of a mystery.

In fact Christ tells us that we should have faith like little children, not well-formed theologically driven adults.

Thus Christ Himself claims children have faith.

Hey Smalcald! Great to see you again!

I have heard that term "child-like faith" a few times before. Honestly, I think he means little children(not babies) who have such in faith in those around them. For instance, there is a child that I baby sit. He trusts me and if I were to tell him something, he would mostly likely believe me. Most children are like that to their parents. When he says "child-like faith" I think he means that kind of faith where when he tells us something, we believe it automatically and dont question it. Or at least, I think that that is what he means.

[st. Worm]

'God also says that we can know that God is who He says He is if we just look around us at creation "

Nope, not at all. Paul writes we SHOULD be able to have a true knowledge of God but afterwards indicates that the knowledge that we have is not at all useful in knowing and honoring God properly. And as Paul also writes we will not be excused for failing to know God through the creation. Our sin which blinds us will not be an acceptable excuse.

[kittylover0991]

Sorry.. I read the last post wrong..

Edited December 31, 2005 by kittylover0991

[st. Worm]

"So we can't know God but God will hold us accountable for not knowing him despite our sin? That doesn't sound like the loving God I know..'

Indeed God does not play fair or at least as you describe fairness. Sin blinds us. We are responsible for our sin so certainly God holds us accountable for not knowing and honoring him as we should because of it. The sinner in us hates that God would actually blame us for our sin.

God is loving and that is why we have Jesus. But God is also holy and demands justice. For those who don't have Christ that justice will be all too apparent someday.

[kittylover0991]

'God also says that we can know that God is who He says He is if we just look around us at creation "

Nope, not at all. Paul writes we SHOULD be able to have a true knowledge of God but afterwards indicates that the knowledge that we have is not at all useful in knowing and honoring God properly. And as Paul also writes we will not be excused for failing to know God through the creation. Our sin which blinds us will not be an acceptable excuse.

I think I know what you are talking about. It sounds SO familiar. Could you possibly give me the reference for what you said

<== is interested in reading this passage.. I think I have only skimmed over that part... but what you are saying seems to make sense...

[kittylover0991]

"So we can't know God but God will hold us accountable for not knowing him despite our sin? That doesn't sound like the loving God I know..'

Indeed God does not play fair or at least as you describe fairness. Sin blinds us. We are responsible for our sin so certainly God holds us accountable for not knowing and honoring him as we should because of it. The sinner in us hates that God would actually blame us for our sin.

God is loving and that is why we have Jesus. But God is also holy and demands justice. For those who don't have Christ that justice will be all too apparent someday.

Yeah, like I said, I read what you said wrong before I made that post

Yeah, I see what you mean except for one thing. I know that God will hold us accountable for our sin. However, will God hold us accountable for not doing something we can't? Or will He gold us accountable for not trying even though we cannot? Or can we get only that taste of knowing him and then fully know Him when we reach heaven?

I am sorry if I seem ignorant on this topic. What you are saying at this point has me so interested as I have never actually heard this before.