An honest question

[st. Worm]

"Sure, it's evolution at it's finest. A mutation occurs that emcompasses our values and it's engraned as knowledge on the genetic level."

You sound very sure of that statement. Have these "morality" genes been isolated? When were they discovered? I have never heard of this before and would like more information. Do you have any reference? Further, is a person more or less moral based on their level of evolutionary advancement? Do other creatures besides human have this genetic characteristic?

Also, if its true that ethics and morality are just issues of random chance evolution, are they valid? Why does our conscience care if someone steals from us? Why was the person who stole from us not prevented from doing so by his genetics? If its truly genetic I could no more steal from someone than change the color of my eyes by willing it. Yet in my life I have stolen.

Edited January 21, 2006 by st. Worm

[st. Worm]

I did not think your position would fall apart quite this quickly Baatheist. Your answer is so disjointed it seems to make no real sense. Laws and penalties have wiped out those who kill outside of God's name??? A bizarre and laughable statement. The largest slaughters in the history of mankind are by atheists including the hundreds of millions killed by Stalin, Pol Pot and the Chicoms. Please try again!

[st. Worm]

"Am I allowed to make fun of him in return and make blanket statements that are credible only because I say them?"

matt

Your statements about genetics being responsible for ethics and morality in humans is made without any proof. It requires a great deal of faith on your part to believe it because it has no scientific basis. In effect it is a blanket statement that has no credibililty.

What would you like to discuss about history?

SW

[poetically_taken]

Hello,

Let me be straightfoward: I'm an atheist and despite years of christian schooling, I have always been rather skeptical about Christianity and other religions. I would consider myself a fair person and debater, so I think it would be great if we could discuss theological questions in a fair manner (none of the "You're going to hell!" or equal "You're a stupid Christian" stuff). I'm certain there have been plenty of predecessors that have tried this, but I would genuinly like to know what makes 'you people' tick.

Let me get to my first question, one that has kept me from most religions all my life: "Where does God come from?"

I know the ad hoc Christian counter-argument is: "God is eternal, therefore he has no beginning."

To me, that doesn't answer the question. Although eternal things would indeed not have a beginning per se, this is really only a temporal argument. My question is really "Where does, what God consists of, come from?". I know there are many different Christian views on the nature of God. From the Mormon idea, that God is a being of 'flesh and blood' to the moderate idea, that God is energy, spirit, ... or something around those lines. But I think, even amongst different confessions, there can be little doubt that God consists of something (whatever that might be). So where does that come from.

You might ask me "Where does the universe come from". My answer is I don't know. The Christian answer doesn't have much appeal, because, to me, it's a contradictory argument:

1) Where does everything come from? It can't come from nowhere.

2) God created everything, he came from nowhere.

I ask that nobody be offended by my thoughts, I'm not trying to win one over for the 'other side'. I'm just interested how a Christian 'overrides' this paradox. If you have any questions concerning atheism, feel free to ask. I'll do my best to give a coherent answer.

Well, I am just going to give what I think and if it is similar ot any else's thoughts, sorry for makin you read more than you have too.

1) where does God come from?

I beleive that since He created time when He made matter, He is outside of time, it doesn't apply to Him at all. He didn't need to come into being becuase He was already here. I guess this is a hard concept for people to accept/understand becuase everything we have ever seen in this world has a beginning and an end and to take us out of our boundries between beginning and end is hard to do. Plus, even if people faked knowing where He came from then people owuld want to know where that came from and then where that thing came from. It's this never ending cycle of where did that come from? To tell you the truth, I just think that question is something satan uses to keep people away from christianity. As for what He consists of, God is not in any form, nothing makes Him up. It's like the wind, you can't see it but you can see the effects of it. So I beleive God is really made up of nothing... that is, in the context that we think of matter (such as atoms and all).

2)As for what makes me tick and why I beleive in Christianity. It's a long story to retell, but what the whole thing boils down to is, I've seen Him change others lives, turn them completely around. I've seen Him in my life, seen all the wonders that come from Him, He's changed my life, and I was never changed the way I was by any other god or religion. Nothing, absolutely nothing could compare to what God has done for me and it's just silly to beleive in anthing else other than what has changed your life for ever more.

[angels4u]

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him

[Ratio]

Ratio

The trouble with that argument is that it can just as well apply to empirical things. I could tell you that energy is eternal. Thus energy always was. However that still doesn't explain where it came from. See the problem? Secondly, from a non-Christian/theistic perspective, how do you know that God is eternal? God could have just as well been created and then have created the universe,...

You are making a couple of errors in reasoning. First you ask an illogical question,

Edited January 23, 2006 by IslandRose

[mikehev]

In the end everything will make sense. Why are things the way they are? Because eventually, God will get glory from all of it. God didn't make us because he needed the company, and he also didn't make us because he was bored. He made us because like everything else he made, the story of God's redemption for mankind will bring him glory. Because he loves us, we can be a part of that eternal story. However, because of who and what he is in principle, we can also be dismissed from that story if we reject His Son.

Where did God come from? Really, this question can be begged on both sides. When you keep breaking it down, evolution will say that everything started in specks no bigger than a speck of dirt. When we break things down as Christians we say that everything started with God. So I guess when you boil it down to the basics, someone who believes in evolution would say in the beginning dirt, and a Christian would say in the beginning God. Now I can't explain where God came from, anymore than an evolutionist can explain where dirt came from. But to be honest, I'm glad I have a God that I can't explain. That just shows that He made me up, and I didn't make him up.

Overall, the skeptic will not believe no matter the amount of evidence presented. And a believer will believe with little to no evidence presented at all. The sure reason for that is because the believer's heart has been touched by God, and he knows Him personally.

So perhaps the real question is not Why, When or How God at this moment for you. Maybe the real question is that if nothing has meaning....how could I have come to the conclusion that nothing has meaning? Why would I even care what makes a Christian tick? Or Why would I even care to learn about their view of God? The answer is undoubtedly because no matter how small the amount may be God has given you a degree of light. By you coming to this board, you have acted on that light whether you know it or not. I would suggest that you keep acting on the light. God draws near to those that draw near to Him. He reveals himself to babes. I will pray for you. Know that God loves you, I love you, the people on this board love you, and that the reality of God, which can be seen in so many things, is always seen best by the invisible relationship with Him, made available through His Son Jesus Christ to all those that believe on Him.

Edited January 23, 2006 by mikehev

[Ovedya]

Hello,

Let me be straightfoward: I'm an atheist and despite years of christian schooling, I have always been rather skeptical about Christianity and other religions. I would consider myself a fair person and debater, so I think it would be great if we could discuss theological questions in a fair manner (none of the "You're going to hell!" or equal "You're a stupid Christian" stuff). I'm certain there have been plenty of predecessors that have tried this, but I would genuinly like to know what makes 'you people' tick.

Let me get to my first question, one that has kept me from most religions all my life: "Where does God come from?"

I know the ad hoc Christian counter-argument is: "God is eternal, therefore he has no beginning."

To me, that doesn't answer the question. Although eternal things would indeed not have a beginning per se, this is really only a temporal argument. My question is really "Where does, what God consists of, come from?". I know there are many different Christian views on the nature of God. From the Mormon idea, that God is a being of 'flesh and blood' to the moderate idea, that God is energy, spirit, ... or something around those lines. But I think, even amongst different confessions, there can be little doubt that God consists of something (whatever that might be). So where does that come from.

You might ask me "Where does the universe come from". My answer is I don't know. The Christian answer doesn't have much appeal, because, to me, it's a contradictory argument:

1) Where does everything come from? It can't come from nowhere.

2) God created everything, he came from nowhere.

I ask that nobody be offended by my thoughts, I'm not trying to win one over for the 'other side'. I'm just interested how a Christian 'overrides' this paradox. If you have any questions concerning atheism, feel free to ask. I'll do my best to give a coherent answer.

Consider the size, space, and quantity of the entire universe and answer: How much space do you take up in it?

[ted]

Where does God come from?

Who cares? I'm just glad He's there.

t.

[angels4u]

Psalm 14

1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.

5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.

6 Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD is his refuge.

7 Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! when the LORD bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.