Baptists not Protestant?

[Pax]

I can't say that what you have said has made me think any differently about the Baptist church, but what you said was amazing. There are few things that the Catholic Church teaches/preaches such as purgatory, baptism of babies, and universal church(I believe in an autonomous church)... but what you said was amazing. It also amazes me that at least one part of the Catholic church actually teaches true salvation(from what you have said). There is a lady at my church who was born and raised Catholic and even brought her children up Catholic. She said that there was a lady(I am guessing at work) that continually tried to tell her about Jesus. She said it took a while, but one day, she finally relized that she wasnt' truly saved and accepted Christ. It seems weird to me that some woudl go from one religion to another, and others would go from that other religion, back to the one someone else just left. It amazes me that different churches.. or parts of the Catholic church, it seems, teaches different things then others. Many baptists are different than others, and it seems that differnt parts of the Catholic Church teach different things.

Some "churches" don't have God as the focus and they have false teachings because man is the center. These few churches seems to ruin the name of that church in so many ways. As to the doctrinal soundness of the Catholic church, I honestly have no idea other than those three areas that i previously mentioned. I hear so many different things from formet Catholics and so many different things from former Protestants who are now Catholic to know what Catholic Church really teaches. I am always told "Here, read this! It will tell you what the Catholic Church believes." Someone else will say, "Here, read this! That other book you have has errors. There are a few thigns the Catholic church doesn't agree with". There are so many people who will give you book after book as to what the Catholic church really beleives(given to me by Catholics).. and no one ever seems to fully agree with another. I think the problem isn't that one has to be Catholic to understand what the Catholic Church believes, it seems to me that there are enough people not teaching the pure word of God that it leaves confusion as to what is really believed. I am sorry Pax, but I just don't know what is true about the Catholic Church anymore and I don't know where to start looking for the answers to what the TRUE Catholic church believes.

With love in Christ Jesus,

Crystal

Crystal,

My answer to your question of not knowing where to start looking for what the Catholic Church teaches is very simple and easy. Pick up the Catechism of the Catholic Church and start reading. Throughout the 2,000 year history of the Catholic Church there have been two versions printed. The first was printed around the time of the Council of Trent, which would of been in the 1500's and the second version was printed very recent. This was printed in the early 1990's. The reason the Church printed the Catechism was for people such as yourself and also for Catholics who wanted to know the official teachings of the Catholic Church. It is all in there, everything from Birth control to Purgatory. It is also organized in a simple way so that you don't have to have a doctorate in theology to read and understand it. You could probably go on ebay and find a copy for next to nothing. This book was also printed in a smaller paperback version that cost around $7.00. There is no excuse for anyone Catholic, or Non-Catholic to say they don't know what the Church teaches. It's all in the Catechism. If you don't want to buy a book there are a few good websites that will answer your questions about the Catholic Church. I won't posted them here, but if you are intersted send me a PM and I will be happy to give those to you. Hope this helps.

Pax

[Marnie]

This is giving me a headache

[John3;16]

Pax

I read back over my post, and realized that you were right, I did not actually give any details of whether or not my wife left the Catholic Church, or any time frame, so I will answer that now, this all occurred back in the early to mid 80

[Pax]

Pax

I read back over my post, and realized that you were right, I did not actually give any details of whether or not my wife left the Catholic Church, or any time frame, so I will answer that now, this all occurred back in the early to mid 80

[John3;16]

John 3:16,

I agree with most of your post, but you left out what the book of James, 1Cornthians, John, and Mathew say about salvation. James 2:24 "You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only." It really doesn't get much clear than this . If a Bible based Church taught that their only source of theological knowledge was the Bible, then how could anyone not understand that works are a very important component to salvation? However, faith would also pay a large part, but not the only part.

James 2:26 "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." Once again this doesn't get much clearer. This is why Martin Luther tried hard to throw the book of James out of the Bible. It didn't jive with his notion of theology.

The works that James speaks of are works of faith, there are many people in the world who reject Christ and his plan of salvation and these people can also do charitable works, but good works without faith is of no value in relationship with salvation, because as is stated in Titus 3:5 we are not saved by works of righteousness which we have done. There is another difference between the Catholic and Baptist (born again) and that is the issue of assurance of salvation, the Catholic believes that salvation can be lost from one day to the next depending on what sin you commit, this places salvation on the individual and his actions, and not on Christ and his redemptive work on the cross, and his intercessory work on the right hand of God. The following verses from James reveal works of faith which God accepts as a sign of faith, as I stated in an earlier post that Abraham believed God and this is the work that James is using as an example, if you think about it God promised Abraham that it would be through Isaac that his seed would be as the stars in the sky and as numerous as the sand on the shore, so although Abraham may not have understood exactly how God would perform this he trusted God and followed Gods instructions. And it is not a question of what Abraham did but what he did because of his faith, even though God intervened and prevented him from sacraficing his son, the work revealed his faith.

James|2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

James|2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.

James|2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

James|2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

James|2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

James|2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

James|2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

James|2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Jesus is the foundation of the church, the twelve Apostles are also referred to as foundations because they were the ones who brought forth the gospel, but the church is built upon one Rock and that Rock is Christ, also in 1Cor 3:12-16, an example is given of good works being gold, silver, and precious stones, and when this are tried they remain and another example is given of evil works and these are represented by wood, hay, and stubble, and when these are tested in that day, by fire, they will be burned up. Now this leads to a conclusion in verses 3:14 and 3:15 if any man has good works he shall receive a reward, and at the same time his evil works will be burned and even though he will suffer some type of loss (reward) he will still be saved. This is an example of grace, receiving something we are not worthy of receiving, and a direct correlation to the believers appearing before the judgment seat.

1 Corinthians|3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians|3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

1 Corinthians|3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

1 Corinthians|3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

1 Corinthians|3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

1 Corinthians|3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and

[Pax]

John,

You put so time into that last post. I will say it again that I agree with much of what you said. I would be the first to agree with you that faith is essential to salvation, but works also play a part. I would encourage you to go back and read what Martin Luther had to say on this topic. This notion of being saved by faith alone wasn't even a concept within the Church for the 1500 years after the death and resurrection of Christ. Then came along Martin Luther and the theory of being saved by faith alone. Luther also wrote many odd works that boasted about how much he could sin and still go to heaven. Many of his writings were very crude. This is the founder of this idea that we are only saved by faith and then one can do what ever they want. You have to remember that Christ, as told in the book of John, commanded us to live by the 10 commandments if we wanted to have eternal salvation. He didn't say, hey if you would like to live by the 10 commandments thats o.k., but if not its all good. All you have to do is have faith in the fact that I died on the cross for your sins and bingo your in heaven. Not one of the early Church fathers ever taught this idea of salvation. So John, you are going against all the early Church fathers such as St. Ambrose, St Augustine, Justin the Martyr, etc in your beliefs.

I wish you would ask me more questions about the Catholic Church. It all adds up.

[John3;16]

John,

You put so time into that last post. I will say it again that I agree with much of what you said. I would be the first to agree with you that faith is essential to salvation, but works also play a part. I would encourage you to go back and read what Martin Luther had to say on this topic. This notion of being saved by faith alone wasn't even a concept within the Church for the 1500 years after the death and resurrection of Christ. Then came along Martin Luther and the theory of being saved by faith alone.

I can only rely on what the bible teaches about salvation, faith, and works, what I understand from studying the bible about salvation is that it is a free gift that is offered to all, but to receive the gift you must receive it by faith, but I am not going to revisit the same subject at this time because I want to go into some of the issues of the catechism that I believe are erroneously taught by the Catholic Church. The first matter deals with the Eucharist that is celebrated during the mass, and the significance that is placed on it, we have been discussing salvation, faith, and works and the relationship between them, but from my understanding what the R.C.C. teaches about the Eucharist is that it is an un-bloody sacrifice, and that it is considered a means of atonement. Below is an excerpt of the catechism Article 3 section 2, my question is: why are they performing a sacrifice of Christ when he said from the cross that it is finished?(John 19:30)

The memorial of the Lord's Passion and Resurrection.

The Holy Sacrifice, because it makes present the one sacrifice of Christ the Savior and includes the Church's offering. The terms holy sacrifice of the Mass, "sacrifice of praise," spiritual sacrifice, pure and holy sacrifice are also used,150 since it completes and surpasses all the sacrifices of the Old Covenant.

John|19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Hebrews|1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

Hebrews|1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by

[Pax]

John,

You put so time into that last post. I will say it again that I agree with much of what you said. I would be the first to agree with you that faith is essential to salvation, but works also play a part. I would encourage you to go back and read what Martin Luther had to say on this topic. This notion of being saved by faith alone wasn't even a concept within the Church for the 1500 years after the death and resurrection of Christ. Then came along Martin Luther and the theory of being saved by faith alone.

I can only rely on what the bible teaches about salvation, faith, and works, what I understand from studying the bible about salvation is that it is a free gift that is offered to all, but to receive the gift you must receive it by faith, but I am not going to revisit the same subject at this time because I want to go into some of the issues of the catechism that I believe are erroneously taught by the Catholic Church. The first matter deals with the Eucharist that is celebrated during the mass, and the significance that is placed on it, we have been discussing salvation, faith, and works and the relationship between them, but from my understanding what the R.C.C. teaches about the Eucharist is that it is an un-bloody sacrifice, and that it is considered a means of atonement. Below is an excerpt of the catechism Article 3 section 2, my question is: why are they performing a sacrifice of Christ when he said from the cross that it is finished?(John 19:30)

The memorial of the Lord's Passion and Resurrection.

The Holy Sacrifice, because it makes present the one sacrifice of Christ the Savior and includes the Church's offering. The terms holy sacrifice of the Mass, "sacrifice of praise," spiritual sacrifice, pure and holy sacrifice are also used,150 since it completes and surpasses all the sacrifices of the Old Covenant.

John|19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Hebrews|1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

Hebrews|1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by

[Smalcald]

Pax,

Luther did not believe you could simply do whatever you wanted, he did believe and his sermons and writings reflected that faith was everything, that you could not please God with good works done outside of faith in God, all works emanate from faith was his stand, and that faith covered the sins of our flesh which we cannot by our own will remove, and the false notion that we could ever be sinless and pure before God by our own doing was challenged. Repentance does not make us sinless, even for a moment, if it could than Jesus was not needed; all must focus back to Christ and away from ourselves and our own efforts. We can go into some of the details of his writings, I think you may be referring to his 'sin boldly" work?

He was crude sometimes I agree. Also some of his writings seem to contradict in my opinion, and I think he wrestled with what he was doing as things unfolded around him, he was just a man.

[John3;16]

John,

Once again I would agree with most of your post. You are very much correct that Jesus Christ was only sacrificied once as stated in scripture. During a Catholic Mass the sacrifice of Calvary is re-presented, not in a bloody, physical way, but in an unbloody, Sacramental way. Christ's blood was only shed once, but it is continually offered to the Father. When a priest offers the sacrifice of the mass, he is not offereing a sacrifice distinct from that on Calvary. Christ is not dying all over again. What is on the altar is the very same sacrifice as on Calvery, but it is made present to us today in a special, Sacramental way. This is a presence distinct from a physical, historical presence and distinct from a merely symbolic presence. It is a third kind of presence. In it Christ is really present on the altar, and at the consecration a real offering of Christ to the Father is made. Although Christ died only once, through the Mass his saving act is made actually present day by day, until the end of the world.

You say that the sacrafice on Calvery is re-presented during the mass, since it is representative of what occurred on Calvery, and because that sacrifice required blood and was the only acceptable sacrafice, than what occurs during the mass can only represent the sacrifice on Calvery and that would make it a memorial, as Jesus instructed his disciples and also those who would follow, to do this in rememberance of me. The braking of the bread signifies the price that he paid, the picture of the breaking of the bread is symbolic of his body being broken and the wine is symbolic of his blood which he shed to cleanses us from all our sins, and this fulfills the old covenant and completes it, allowing for a new covenant to be installed in its place, and in this new covenant Jesus is the high Priest, and it is Jesus who makes intercession for us, He presents the offering for sin. But this is not dictated by some ritual or ceremony performed by a Priest, but only by our High Priest. Because He ever makes intercession for us, sitting on the right hand of God. And this is accomplished for those who are called to be his heirs, although God sheds his mercy upon all mankind, but those who accept his gift and receive him as Savior are sealed and receive the Holy Spirit. When you become a believer you become a new creature, you are regenerated, does this mean that you become perfect in the flesh? The answer is no, because we are told to ask for forgiveness, as can be found in 1John 1:9, he washes all of our sins away, and although we are instructed to ask for forgiveness when we sin, this is to preserve our fellowship, and to avoid chastisment of which there are many forms, but there are consequences to sin, if you were a heavy drinker before you were saved you can develop liver problems, or if you smoke you could develop lung cancer, just because you are forgiven eternally does not mean you won