Regarding these Trinity discussions ...

[st. Worm]

I assume Brother Chad will be bumped to unbeliever status by the moderators soon just as bill the computer geek was.

[Brother Chad]

I assume Brother Chad will be bumped to unbeliever status by the moderators soon just as bill the computer geek was.

I assume I will! That is a sad thing because I have shown that our view is not heretical with the Bible. Our views of oneness are heretical to the man-made doctrine of the trinity.

[apothanein kerdos]

The worst and most amazing arguments heretics use to deny one of the most important theological truths conveyed in the Bible are:

1. The Roman Catholic church believed in the Trinity so therefore it can't be right.

2. The word Trinity does not appear in the Bible so therefore it can't be true doctrine.

Do those of you who deny the Trinity because of the RCC believe that the church was only invented in 1900? How absurd to be so anti-RCC that you are willing to completely throw out 2000 years of church history because you believe you are a better interpreter of the Bible than any church father prior to the Reformation and Luther, Calvin and others afterwards. How foolish can one be?

And those who deny the Trinity because the term itself does not appear in the Bible surely must be aware that the term "Bible" itself does not appear in the Bible. Does that also mean the Bible is invalid because it is not a biblical term?

Although the Reformation was much needed and has led to good things it is just as clear that many of the most biblically illiterate and untrained fundamentalists have removed themselves so far away from the realm of orthodoxy that in many cases they can no longer be considered as part of the Christian faith. Many have completely redefined God by returning to the old Arian heresy. I am sorry for my harshness but I have seen so much on this board from posters who have left sound doctrine behind yet who are extremely bold and arrogant in their misguided views.

What's even worse is they are pushing their heresy off on unsuspecting new believers who wander on here who don't know the difference. As Jesus said, they will travel land and sea to make a single convert and after they do they will be twice the child of hell.

May God help us,

SW

I understand how you feel. The Trinity has been a part of Christianity for a long time (too long if you ask me). It has nothing to do with the fact that the RCC is spewing out man-made dogmas left and right. Most people who are a part of that organization are probably very good Christian people. It also has nothing to do with the fact that the word trinity is not in the Bible.

We don't believe because of what the Bible says and the understanding of what the Bible says about Jesus.

I will be very simple with this because the Oneness is not some mystery like some would say of the trinity.

1) Is God the Father a Spirit? Is God the Father Holy?

If you answer yes to these two questions which the Bible clearly state several times then wouldn't that make the Holy Spirit the Father or do we have two Holy Spirits. Do you ever notice that God the Father used "His" Holy Spirit to conceive the baby Jesus. Yet God the Father is the Father of Jesus. These are roles or functions of our one true God and not persons in a Godhead. I don't even feel the need to get into who Jesus Christ was because this right here proves that the Holy Spirit and the Father are one in the same.

Otherwise you have polytheism which is what I see alot of Trinitarians going towards in this forum. Seeing more than One in Heaven is Polytheism whether you admit it or not.

We are just trying to understand just like the rest out there. Something like the Trinity that has been held to be truth for so long is obviously going to be hard to deny but if we see that the Truth is something else, isn't that all we want is truth?

God is not a spirit. Though He is equated as such in the Bible, this is in reference to the Holy Spirit. God, being the head of the Trinity, is outside of our ontology. This means that He is neither physical or spirit bound...He simply exists outside of our realm of understanding. Jesus, however, is the physical person in the Trinity and the Holy Spirit is the spiritual person in the Trinity....different in form but "same" in ontology (though still above our metaphysical realm). Jesus is either part of a Trinity or not God at all. Jesus cannot simply be a manifestation of God; if this were the case then how could He die? God cannot die, yet Jesus did. It would make absolutely no sense.

It is impossible in a philosophical realm, and biblical, for Oneness to work.

[Brother Chad]

The worst and most amazing arguments heretics use to deny one of the most important theological truths conveyed in the Bible are:

1. The Roman Catholic church believed in the Trinity so therefore it can't be right.

2. The word Trinity does not appear in the Bible so therefore it can't be true doctrine.

Do those of you who deny the Trinity because of the RCC believe that the church was only invented in 1900? How absurd to be so anti-RCC that you are willing to completely throw out 2000 years of church history because you believe you are a better interpreter of the Bible than any church father prior to the Reformation and Luther, Calvin and others afterwards. How foolish can one be?

And those who deny the Trinity because the term itself does not appear in the Bible surely must be aware that the term "Bible" itself does not appear in the Bible. Does that also mean the Bible is invalid because it is not a biblical term?

Although the Reformation was much needed and has led to good things it is just as clear that many of the most biblically illiterate and untrained fundamentalists have removed themselves so far away from the realm of orthodoxy that in many cases they can no longer be considered as part of the Christian faith. Many have completely redefined God by returning to the old Arian heresy. I am sorry for my harshness but I have seen so much on this board from posters who have left sound doctrine behind yet who are extremely bold and arrogant in their misguided views.

What's even worse is they are pushing their heresy off on unsuspecting new believers who wander on here who don't know the difference. As Jesus said, they will travel land and sea to make a single convert and after they do they will be twice the child of hell.

May God help us,

SW

I understand how you feel. The Trinity has been a part of Christianity for a long time (too long if you ask me). It has nothing to do with the fact that the RCC is spewing out man-made dogmas left and right. Most people who are a part of that organization are probably very good Christian people. It also has nothing to do with the fact that the word trinity is not in the Bible.

We don't believe because of what the Bible says and the understanding of what the Bible says about Jesus.

I will be very simple with this because the Oneness is not some mystery like some would say of the trinity.

1) Is God the Father a Spirit? Is God the Father Holy?

If you answer yes to these two questions which the Bible clearly state several times then wouldn't that make the Holy Spirit the Father or do we have two Holy Spirits. Do you ever notice that God the Father used "His" Holy Spirit to conceive the baby Jesus. Yet God the Father is the Father of Jesus. These are roles or functions of our one true God and not persons in a Godhead. I don't even feel the need to get into who Jesus Christ was because this right here proves that the Holy Spirit and the Father are one in the same.

Otherwise you have polytheism which is what I see alot of Trinitarians going towards in this forum. Seeing more than One in Heaven is Polytheism whether you admit it or not.

We are just trying to understand just like the rest out there. Something like the Trinity that has been held to be truth for so long is obviously going to be hard to deny but if we see that the Truth is something else, isn't that all we want is truth?

God is not a spirit. Though He is equated as such in the Bible, this is in reference to the Holy Spirit. God, being the head of the Trinity, is outside of our ontology. This means that He is neither physical or spirit bound...He simply exists outside of our realm of understanding. Jesus, however, is the physical person in the Trinity and the Holy Spirit is the spiritual person in the Trinity....different in form but "same" in ontology (though still above our metaphysical realm). Jesus is either part of a Trinity or not God at all. Jesus cannot simply be a manifestation of God; if this were the case then how could He die? God cannot die, yet Jesus did. It would make absolutely no sense.

It is impossible in a philosophical realm, and biblical, for Oneness to work.

You just don't have a clear picture of who Jesus Christ is!

Look here: I Corinthians 8:6, "To us there is but one God, the Father,of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him."

This explains it perfectly. There is one God who is our Father. He manifested Himself in flesh as Jesus Christ. And now we have a God-man who can be our mediator. God came down to earth and not only is our Creator but is our Savior as well.

[Joe@actsii]

The worst and most amazing arguments heretics use to deny one of the most important theological truths conveyed in the Bible are:

1. The Roman Catholic church believed in the Trinity so therefore it can't be right.

2. The word Trinity does not appear in the Bible so therefore it can't be true doctrine.

Do those of you who deny the Trinity because of the RCC believe that the church was only invented in 1900? How absurd to be so anti-RCC that you are willing to completely throw out 2000 years of church history because you believe you are a better interpreter of the Bible than any church father prior to the Reformation and Luther, Calvin and others afterwards. How foolish can one be?

And those who deny the Trinity because the term itself does not appear in the Bible surely must be aware that the term "Bible" itself does not appear in the Bible. Does that also mean the Bible is invalid because it is not a biblical term?

Although the Reformation was much needed and has led to good things it is just as clear that many of the most biblically illiterate and untrained fundamentalists have removed themselves so far away from the realm of orthodoxy that in many cases they can no longer be considered as part of the Christian faith. Many have completely redefined God by returning to the old Arian heresy. I am sorry for my harshness but I have seen so much on this board from posters who have left sound doctrine behind yet who are extremely bold and arrogant in their misguided views.

What's even worse is they are pushing their heresy off on unsuspecting new believers who wander on here who don't know the difference. As Jesus said, they will travel land and sea to make a single convert and after they do they will be twice the child of hell.

May God help us,

SW

I understand how you feel. The Trinity has been a part of Christianity for a long time (too long if you ask me). It has nothing to do with the fact that the RCC is spewing out man-made dogmas left and right. Most people who are a part of that organization are probably very good Christian people. It also has nothing to do with the fact that the word trinity is not in the Bible.

We don't believe because of what the Bible says and the understanding of what the Bible says about Jesus.

I will be very simple with this because the Oneness is not some mystery like some would say of the trinity.

1) Is God the Father a Spirit? Is God the Father Holy?

If you answer yes to these two questions which the Bible clearly state several times then wouldn't that make the Holy Spirit the Father or do we have two Holy Spirits. Do you ever notice that God the Father used "His" Holy Spirit to conceive the baby Jesus. Yet God the Father is the Father of Jesus. These are roles or functions of our one true God and not persons in a Godhead. I don't even feel the need to get into who Jesus Christ was because this right here proves that the Holy Spirit and the Father are one in the same.

Otherwise you have polytheism which is what I see alot of Trinitarians going towards in this forum. Seeing more than One in Heaven is Polytheism whether you admit it or not.

We are just trying to understand just like the rest out there. Something like the Trinity that has been held to be truth for so long is obviously going to be hard to deny but if we see that the Truth is something else, isn't that all we want is truth?

God is not a spirit. Though He is equated as such in the Bible, this is in reference to the Holy Spirit. God, being the head of the Trinity, is outside of our ontology. This means that He is neither physical or spirit bound...He simply exists outside of our realm of understanding. Jesus, however, is the physical person in the Trinity and the Holy Spirit is the spiritual person in the Trinity....different in form but "same" in ontology (though still above our metaphysical realm). Jesus is either part of a Trinity or not God at all. Jesus cannot simply be a manifestation of God; if this were the case then how could He die? God cannot die, yet Jesus did. It would make absolutely no sense.

It is impossible in a philosophical realm, and biblical, for Oneness to work.

John 4:24

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

KJV

[Ovedya]

The worst and most amazing arguments heretics use to deny one of the most important theological truths conveyed in the Bible are:

1. The Roman Catholic church believed in the Trinity so therefore it can't be right.

2. The word Trinity does not appear in the Bible so therefore it can't be true doctrine.

Do those of you who deny the Trinity because of the RCC believe that the church was only invented in 1900? How absurd to be so anti-RCC that you are willing to completely throw out 2000 years of church history because you believe you are a better interpreter of the Bible than any church father prior to the Reformation and Luther, Calvin and others afterwards. How foolish can one be?

And those who deny the Trinity because the term itself does not appear in the Bible surely must be aware that the term "Bible" itself does not appear in the Bible. Does that also mean the Bible is invalid because it is not a biblical term?

Although the Reformation was much needed and has led to good things it is just as clear that many of the most biblically illiterate and untrained fundamentalists have removed themselves so far away from the realm of orthodoxy that in many cases they can no longer be considered as part of the Christian faith. Many have completely redefined God by returning to the old Arian heresy. I am sorry for my harshness but I have seen so much on this board from posters who have left sound doctrine behind yet who are extremely bold and arrogant in their misguided views.

What's even worse is they are pushing their heresy off on unsuspecting new believers who wander on here who don't know the difference. As Jesus said, they will travel land and sea to make a single convert and after they do they will be twice the child of hell.

May God help us,

SW

I understand how you feel. The Trinity has been a part of Christianity for a long time (too long if you ask me). It has nothing to do with the fact that the RCC is spewing out man-made dogmas left and right. Most people who are a part of that organization are probably very good Christian people. It also has nothing to do with the fact that the word trinity is not in the Bible.

We don't believe because of what the Bible says and the understanding of what the Bible says about Jesus.

I will be very simple with this because the Oneness is not some mystery like some would say of the trinity.

1) Is God the Father a Spirit? Is God the Father Holy?

If you answer yes to these two questions which the Bible clearly state several times then wouldn't that make the Holy Spirit the Father or do we have two Holy Spirits. Do you ever notice that God the Father used "His" Holy Spirit to conceive the baby Jesus. Yet God the Father is the Father of Jesus. These are roles or functions of our one true God and not persons in a Godhead. I don't even feel the need to get into who Jesus Christ was because this right here proves that the Holy Spirit and the Father are one in the same.

Otherwise you have polytheism which is what I see alot of Trinitarians going towards in this forum. Seeing more than One in Heaven is Polytheism whether you admit it or not.

We are just trying to understand just like the rest out there. Something like the Trinity that has been held to be truth for so long is obviously going to be hard to deny but if we see that the Truth is something else, isn't that all we want is truth?

God is not a spirit. Though He is equated as such in the Bible, this is in reference to the Holy Spirit. God, being the head of the Trinity, is outside of our ontology. This means that He is neither physical or spirit bound...He simply exists outside of our realm of understanding. Jesus, however, is the physical person in the Trinity and the Holy Spirit is the spiritual person in the Trinity....different in form but "same" in ontology (though still above our metaphysical realm). Jesus is either part of a Trinity or not God at all. Jesus cannot simply be a manifestation of God; if this were the case then how could He die? God cannot die, yet Jesus did. It would make absolutely no sense.

It is impossible in a philosophical realm, and biblical, for Oneness to work.

John 4:24

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

KJV

Actually, a better translation would be "God is Spirit." There is only one Spirit, so to say that God is a Spirit would relegate Him to a condition of being only one of more than one Spirit. See what I'm saying.

Also, that verse is used quite often in arguments against God's having a physical form. But those that use this verse often ignore 1 Cor. 15:40-49

Simply put: The fact that John 4:24 says that God is Spirit does not mean that He's some kind of nebulous intangible thing that does not have form. Since spirit refers to the nature by which we are required to worship God, then Spirit also refers to the nature of God Himself, and vice-versa.

[apothanein kerdos]

You just don't have a clear picture of who Jesus Christ is!

Look here: I Corinthians 8:6, "To us there is but one God, the Father,of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him."

This explains it perfectly. There is one God who is our Father. He manifested Himself in flesh as Jesus Christ. And now we have a God-man who can be our mediator. God came down to earth and not only is our Creator but is our Savior as well.

You didn't respond to anything I said. Refute what I said and then we'll talk. How can God be limited to a certain ontology?

John 4:24

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

KJV

As pointed out already, this is a mistranslation. There is nothing in the Greek text to suggest we should say "a." In fact, this severely limits God. If God is A spirit, then JESUS ISN'T GOD....unless of course we take the Gnostic approach and teach that Jesus was a man that was inhabited by the spirit of God. Teaching that God is solely a spirit prohibits Jesus from being God in that Jesus was fully flesh. Saying "God is spirit" refers to His invisble nature, not His ontological state of being.

[other one]

The worst and most amazing arguments heretics use to deny one of the most important theological truths conveyed in the Bible are:

1. The Roman Catholic church believed in the Trinity so therefore it can't be right.

2. The word Trinity does not appear in the Bible so therefore it can't be true doctrine.

Do those of you who deny the Trinity because of the RCC believe that the church was only invented in 1900? How absurd to be so anti-RCC that you are willing to completely throw out 2000 years of church history because you believe you are a better interpreter of the Bible than any church father prior to the Reformation and Luther, Calvin and others afterwards. How foolish can one be?

And those who deny the Trinity because the term itself does not appear in the Bible surely must be aware that the term "Bible" itself does not appear in the Bible. Does that also mean the Bible is invalid because it is not a biblical term?

Although the Reformation was much needed and has led to good things it is just as clear that many of the most biblically illiterate and untrained fundamentalists have removed themselves so far away from the realm of orthodoxy that in many cases they can no longer be considered as part of the Christian faith. Many have completely redefined God by returning to the old Arian heresy. I am sorry for my harshness but I have seen so much on this board from posters who have left sound doctrine behind yet who are extremely bold and arrogant in their misguided views.

What's even worse is they are pushing their heresy off on unsuspecting new believers who wander on here who don't know the difference. As Jesus said, they will travel land and sea to make a single convert and after they do they will be twice the child of hell.

May God help us,

SW

I understand how you feel. The Trinity has been a part of Christianity for a long time (too long if you ask me). It has nothing to do with the fact that the RCC is spewing out man-made dogmas left and right. Most people who are a part of that organization are probably very good Christian people. It also has nothing to do with the fact that the word trinity is not in the Bible.

We don't believe because of what the Bible says and the understanding of what the Bible says about Jesus.

I will be very simple with this because the Oneness is not some mystery like some would say of the trinity.

1) Is God the Father a Spirit? Is God the Father Holy?

If you answer yes to these two questions which the Bible clearly state several times then wouldn't that make the Holy Spirit the Father or do we have two Holy Spirits. Do you ever notice that God the Father used "His" Holy Spirit to conceive the baby Jesus. Yet God the Father is the Father of Jesus. These are roles or functions of our one true God and not persons in a Godhead. I don't even feel the need to get into who Jesus Christ was because this right here proves that the Holy Spirit and the Father are one in the same.

Otherwise you have polytheism which is what I see alot of Trinitarians going towards in this forum. Seeing more than One in Heaven is Polytheism whether you admit it or not.

We are just trying to understand just like the rest out there. Something like the Trinity that has been held to be truth for so long is obviously going to be hard to deny but if we see that the Truth is something else, isn't that all we want is truth?

God is not a spirit. Though He is equated as such in the Bible, this is in reference to the Holy Spirit. God, being the head of the Trinity, is outside of our ontology. This means that He is neither physical or spirit bound...He simply exists outside of our realm of understanding. Jesus, however, is the physical person in the Trinity and the Holy Spirit is the spiritual person in the Trinity....different in form but "same" in ontology (though still above our metaphysical realm). Jesus is either part of a Trinity or not God at all. Jesus cannot simply be a manifestation of God; if this were the case then how could He die? God cannot die, yet Jesus did. It would make absolutely no sense.

It is impossible in a philosophical realm, and biblical, for Oneness to work.

You just don't have a clear picture of who Jesus Christ is!

Look here: I Corinthians 8:6, "To us there is but one God, the Father,of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him."

This explains it perfectly. There is one God who is our Father. He manifested Himself in flesh as Jesus Christ. And now we have a God-man who can be our mediator. God came down to earth and not only is our Creator but is our Savior as well.

Hummmm, if that is the case then why does only the Father know when the end will come. And why would the Spitit only tell us what he hears and nothing of His own? That has always bothered me about the oneness theory..

[SDAinFLA]

Hi guys...

This is an interesting discussion, but I am having a hard time following it.

I am trying to figure out what the actual argument is about...are you guys saying the Jesus is not God? Or are you saying Jesus and God are the same person?

Or are you saying that Jesus was a man with God in him?

Thanks!!!