Mankind- born good or evil?

[branchesofHim]

We are accountable because we were meant to "know" the love, mercy, grace, and provision of God for us thus enabling us to be able to fellowship with Him. Fellowship with God is our reason for living. We are partners with God through Christ and with Him we shall rule and reign throughout eternity.

[Marnie]

Why does it have to be "either/or?" Why can it not be both?

I say this because, no matter how much a person denies Christ, they are still in the image of God, thus capable of some limited good. Though their motives may be wrong, the fact is, man is still capable of fulfilling certain aspects of God's image (taking care of others, being good, creating culture, etc) without having God. At the same time, being in a fallen state, that image is tainted, thus man is also prone to commit great acts of evil, destroy culture, and perform evil.

Either way, we are not totally evil or totally good...we are simply geared towards both. only those who accept Christ, however, can gain the full image of God.

The Pauline teaching is quite clear on this point. Our "good deeds" amount to nothing, because G-d looks on the heart and can see motives, etc. I am sure you are not equating good deeds with salvation. Also, in answer to the original question, Adam was created with the capticity of being absolutely perfect.

[DaniJ87]

"The question was once posed to me Why are we held accountable for what Eve did?

What's your (anyone's) take on that?"

Umm... I want you to think....

We are not accountable for what Eve did... we are accountable for what ADAM did.... He could have said "No" to Eve when she offered him the apple... He knew what it was..... God could have destroyed Eve, and created Adam another helpmeet... but noooo.... Adam chose to sin. (So did Eve.... But it was Adam, the head of the family, who we inherited sin from.)

This isn't what Chrisitanity had taught for the previous 1500 years after Christ had died and was resurrected. Luther struggeled with this idea that he wasn't good enough so he could only be saved by faith and that was it. He then translated his internal struggles into theology and thus we have salvation by faith alone. This idea of being saved by faith alone is also very dangerous. It gives a person the false idea that they can live a life however they want and as long as they believe in Jesus Christ and he died for out sins they are going to heaven. The Devil also believes that Jesus Christ died on the Cross and he knows why, however the Devil isn't working for God. Is the Devil going to be in heaven when this is all said and done? Nope Just something to think about.

I have no idea where you get this idea... other than the catholic church.... But you are missing something.... One who is truely saved will not have the desire to live a horrible life... and act on it... We know that this disappoints and saddens God... The devil believes who God is... but he doesn't love Him, and honor Him, and trust Him.... he just fears Him... and bides his time until the end.

We cannot earn our way to Heaven. When Paul talks about works... the only way to translate it that does not contradict Ephesians 2:8-10... is that we are to demonstrate our faith by how we live. If we do not demonstrate our faith, what good is our claim that we have it? This does not mean that the works are part of salvation- but rather, are a natural product of it.

The idea of works being meritorious is certainly differently viewed by Protestants and RC's like Pax. RC's believe works are meritorious towards salvation but as Protestants we know the Bible teaches otherwise (sorry Pax!). Protestants believe that justfication is through faith alone in Christ. But we also believe that even though salvation is by faith alone, it is not a faith that is alone. It is a faith which gives rise to good works. However, unlike Catholics, we do not believe those works merit anything before God in terms of our salvation. RC's still haven't figured that out although Luther tried to school them in that regard (sorry again Pax ;-).

The blood and forgiveness of sins are applied through baptism and the Supper.

NO. Communion is obedience to Christ's commands. However, to say that you must have communion to have your sins forgiven contradicts many verses in the Bible, and occurrences. So does this baptism idea....

What about all of the people that Jesus met, healed, and says "go... your FAITH has saved you"... nobody there had Jesus say to them "come here.. take communion... and get baptized... THEN you will be saved.."

also the Bible says

"WHOEVER shall CALL upon the name of the Lord shall be saved . It doesn't give any prerequisites. Neither do any of the other salvation verses. Just believe, trust, confess... and you WILL be saved. Also... remember what the Bible says about those who will come to Him saying "look at all that I DID for you, Lord..." and He will say "I never knew you".

Another note... unrelated...

Some say "babies are born with sin in their hearts".... well... when does the sin-nature come? David said he would see his child when he died... that child was not old enough to have faith... I believe that there has to be an "age of accountability"... I mean- at least personally, I do not believe that God would send aborted babies to hell... or the victims of infanticide... they have not been alive long enough to make a choice, let alone to choose to sin. And sin IS a choice. That we all make. That is why we go to Hell... because we are incapable of living our lives without sinning. Nobody could do it- even if we tried... So even apart from Adam... we are inherently bent towards evil... in the same way that we will always die... just because we will die, does not mean that we are always dead. We live, and THEN we die... but nobody can escape it. (I think my analogy works... I don't know if it's the best, but...)

[st. Worm]

Dani,

you have several problems with your answers so I will address them in no particular order.

Your quote: 'David said he would see his child when he died... that child was not old enough to have faith"

Answer: Infants most certainly can have faith. See in the Gospel as the unborn John the Baptist leaps for joy in his mother's womb at the mention of His Lord and Savior.

Your quote: I believe that has to be age of accountibility.

Answer: This is the one of the most dangerous misconceptions that modern Christianity has ever contrived. There is nothing in Scripture that gives rise to an "age of accountibility". If there was such a thing we should kill all infants before they arrive at that age so we can guarantee their entrance into Heaven!

Your quote: NO. Communion is obedience to Christ's commands. However, to say that you must have communion to have your sins forgiven contradicts many verses in the Bible, and occurrences. So does this baptism idea....

Answer: No one says you must have communion to have your sins forgiven yet like baptism, communion is a means of God's grace and we receive forgiveness at the Table just as we receive forgiveness by confessing our sins because we partake of the true body of Christ. Communion is not about our obedience. It is about Christ and His obedience to His Father which brought forgiveness of our sins. We believe because through the means of grace we are given the gift of faith. The Bible teaches faith is a gift and not some choice we make.

Our sins are forgiven at the cross and we are declared just. We receive the benefits of that forgiveness through the means of Grace, God's Word and baptism and Holy communion. This is where forgiveness is applied to us. Through baptism we are united to Christ and that baptism works faith. As Peter wrote, this baptism that now saves you. In Holy Communion our faith is strengthened and we receive forgiveness. The Sacraments are precious gifts. Our reason tells us there can be no such thing as real sacraments but God's Word can never be subject to sinful man's reason. Sacrament literally means mystery.

I would urge you study church history in conjunction with Scripture and see that the ideas you are espousing are relatively new inventions and not really biblically supported from the perspective of the historic faith. Modern versions of Christianity make our faith all about us, our obedience, our good works, our this and our that. Christianity is about Christ. We come to worship not to do something for God. We come instead to receive God's grace and forgiveness to us. Worship is God's good service to us and that is why we come to receive His body and blood and to hear His Word. I hope this helps.

Blessings,

SW

[hebrews_beauty]

While sin inevitably becomes a part of us or manifests itself in us, I believe God's creation is good and beautiful. Tainted, but still good. So no, I don't believe anyone is born evil. Everyone makes their own choices when they are consciously able, for good or evil.

[Copper Scroll]

In my tradition, we take great pains to keep a clear distinction between the Law and the Gospel. The Gospel says God provides us entrance to Heaven only for the sake of His Son. Works are absolutely meaningless in that regard. When I say the Law is not a remedy for sin I mean doing the Law is of no value in appeasing God. Only the Gospel and Jesus do that.

But the scripture I refer to quotes Jesus himself, and what Jesus says contradicts what you say above. Do you choose simply to neglect this scripture or is it flat out wrong? I am asking what your answer is to Matthew 25:31-46 and to Luke 10:25-37 if you think good deeds/charity/love do not matter to God and will not help one to attain eternal life.

[Ovedya]

Hey, you know maybe this is a little late in the thread to bring up, but there are LOTS of discussions on Doctrinal about Faith vs. Works and Calvinism vs. Arminianism. Could y'all please check out those threads, and perhaps add your points to them, rather than dragging this particular thread down into a debate about them? The original question had to do with whether or not man is born with a sinful nature. Seems like a pretty straighforward issue to me.

[Gerioke]

Hey, you know maybe this is a little late in the thread to bring up, but there are LOTS of discussions on Doctrinal about Faith vs. Works and Calvinism vs. Arminianism. Could y'all please check out those threads, and perhaps add your points to them, rather than dragging this particular thread down into a debate about them? The original question had to do with whether or not man is born with a sinful nature. Seems like a pretty straighforward issue to me.

Is sin and evil the same thing? We are all born with sin. I don't feel evil.

[Ovedya]

Hey, you know maybe this is a little late in the thread to bring up, but there are LOTS of discussions on Doctrinal about Faith vs. Works and Calvinism vs. Arminianism. Could y'all please check out those threads, and perhaps add your points to them, rather than dragging this particular thread down into a debate about them? The original question had to do with whether or not man is born with a sinful nature. Seems like a pretty straighforward issue to me.

Is sin and evil the same thing? We are all born with sin. I don't feel evil.

I think that "evil" would be that which we also term, "fallen nature." "Evil," therefore, would be that which motivates us to commit offenses before God, whether we are conscious of them or not. Of course, when we are born of God - when we have His life and nature - our conscious should be all the more aware of when we commit those offenses. Those that are not born again, of course, do not generally know of, or care about, when they commit those offenses.

So, according to the old saying, it is not the offenses that make us sinners, we are sinners, therefore, we commit offenses.

[amazingrace]

Adam was created good but his ancestors and that includes all of us are as "depraved as rats" to quote Calvin. We think we are not evil but believe me in comparison to the holy God we most certainly are.

I think you may be a bit confused. As the first man created by God, Adam had no ancestors. We are the descendents of Adam, not his ancestors.