about jesus being worshipped in new test

[Guest Hani_]

hello ayin ...

well it seems u are trying by any means to stick diety to jesus peace on him ...

while jesus is totaly innocent from it ...

let's be simple ....

i asked u .... how did the ppl worship jesus in yr eyes ...

so u said by prostration

so i showed u by proof from ur bible that many other men were worshipped

it was the custom at that time ayin .....

weird how u are desperatly trying to make a human being GOd .... while this human being is shouting in everyword ... that he is just the poor servent of GOd ....

i dont really care about the word .... "worship"

i care about what the ppl really do so that u claimed they worshipped jesus as their creator

and the issue of different translations and versions of the bible is a very intresting issue

how everyone picks his own translation ..

which shows that the bible is totaly corrupted and changed

as i said ..

lets be simple ayin ...

jesus said clearly ... that there is another who bears wittness of him and that his own test is nothing

ur calling jesus a liar by denying this

and the fact that another being is the one who bears wittness

shows 2 gods if u claim both jesus and this being are gods

so by this u have 2 gods

let me paste again ...

...."By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me. (From the NIV Bible, John 5:30)"

so ... another bears wittness of jesus

jesus seeks to please another who sent him

really ayin ... no way u can twist this by any means ..

words of jesus are clear .. direct ... and precise

Joh 5:37 And He sending Me, the Father Himself, has borne witness of Me. Neither have you heard His voice at any time nor seen His shape.

so .. jesus is saying clearly that the shape of GOd and his voice .... is not his shape and not his voice

if u say jesus is god and also the father

this makes them 2 gods .. with different voices and shapes

and about the verse which says who has seen me has seen the father

jesus didnt mean real shape ... never ayin

he meant .. who has seen the miracles of jesus ... will know that he was really sent by GOd

so .. the shape and voice of jesus ...

is not the shape and voice of GOd by jesus's words .. no matter how hard u try to twist them to fit ur faith

u claimed ... jesus is GOd because of his miracles ..

then when i showed u that many other prophets in ur bible did same miracles

u change to forgiving sins

r u now convinced that making miracles doesnt indicate diety at all ?

i hope u know that now ayin

the truth is simple folks .... not a dogma

jesus worshipped his GOd in ur bible .. and thats a fact

[ayin jade]

hello ayin ...

well it seems u are trying by any means to stick diety to jesus peace on him ...

while jesus is totaly innocent from it ...

let's be simple ....

i asked u .... how did the ppl worship jesus in yr eyes ...

so u said by prostration

Actually, you said by prostration, not I. I showed you how the word worship is in the text, and is applied to worship of God the Father as well. I then showed you how prostration in the OT when used for people doesnt have the connotation of worship and isnt the same as the word in the NT.

It seems that you want to ignore my words in order to promote your view.

[ayin jade]

and the issue of different translations and versions of the bible is a very intresting issue

how everyone picks his own translation ..

which shows that the bible is totaly corrupted and changed

There are many threads on the bible and its validity. In all the years the bible has been around, no one has proven that the bible is corrupt or changed. Would you like to give it a try?

as i said ..

lets be simple ayin ...

jesus said clearly ... that there is another who bears wittness of him and that his own test is nothing

ur calling jesus a liar by denying this

and the fact that another being is the one who bears wittness

shows 2 gods if u claim both jesus and this being are gods

so by this u have 2 gods

You do not understand the trinity. One God, 3 persons. I know it is a hard concept. However, to be clear, I did not call Jesus a liar, for I acknowledge who He is. And I explained the passage quite plainly to you. One has to read the text in context in order to understand it.

and about the verse which says who has seen me has seen the father

jesus didnt mean real shape ... never ayin

he meant .. who has seen the miracles of jesus ... will know that he was really sent by GOd

so .. the shape and voice of jesus ...

is not the shape and voice of GOd by jesus's words .. no matter how hard u try to twist them to fit ur faith

The bible tells us that those who are spiritually blind, the lost, such as yourself, will not be able to understand some things. The Trinity is one of those things you will struggle to understand without the Holy Spirit's guidance.

u claimed ... jesus is GOd because of his miracles ..

then when i showed u that many other prophets in ur bible did same miracles

u change to forgiving sins

r u now convinced that making miracles doesnt indicate diety at all ?

i hope u know that now ayin

Twisting my words Hani.

jesus worshipped his GOd in ur bible .. and thats a fact

Jesus is the Son of God, part of the Trinity. Not a mere man. Through Him alone comes salvation. There is no other name on earth by which men can be saved.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him.

18 He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God.

Hani, you need to know who Jesus really is. Not prophet. He is Lord and Savior. Messiah. The second member of the Trinity.

[Leonard]

Greetings Hani:

One of the more potent proofs of the Deity of Christ is when the Apostle Thomas declared Jesus to be "My Lord, and my God!" in John 20: 28. The Greek text is quite explicit that Thomas used "ho theos" ("The God"). Whenever the Greek speaking Jews spoke of some pagan god, they simply used 'theos'. The addition of the definite article "ho" before 'theos' is how they differentiated in particular when they were referring to their own true God.

It is so translated by every reliable authority. Cf. The James Moffatt translation, KJV, RSV, NRSV, NASB, Rheims/Douay, The Concordant Greek Text, ASV. The Latin Vulgate has "Dominus meus et Deus meus!"

Further, when the Jews translated their own Scriptures into Greek for the library at Alexandria (technically called the 'Septuagint' translation) about a couple of centuries before Jesus' birth, they used the Greek word 'kurios' ( 'Lord' or kyrios, as some may put it), for the sacred Name YHWH. This became the habit in both writing and speaking among Greek speaking Jews; they would 'protect' the ineffable Name from blasphemy by reverently substituting the Greek Kurios (Lord). This is clearly seen by its hundreds and hundreds uses in the Septuagint.

It is THIS WORD--Kurios--which we see applied over and over and over again to Jesus Christ in the New Testament.

My friend, there is nothing clearer in the New Testament than that these early Christians believed that Jesus was God. This is true to such an extent, that many--like Moslems of today--who could not understand how one being could be BOTH God and man, came to teach that Jesus was entirely God, and only 'appeared' to be man.

Others, denying a large portion of the New Testament, began to teach He was a man who only 'appeared' to be God.

Both of these ideas are disproved by the New Testament, and were discredited by the Church throughout its early history, culminating in their rejection by the ecumenical Nicea-Constantinopolitan Councils.

And now friend, let me tell you my own story. Some years back as a teenager and a fairly new convert to Christianity, I was out in the desert by Phoenix, Arizona, driving carelessly and very fast, because I thought this was fun..... Suddenly as I was coming up a hill, I felt a strong impression I knew was from God to "Slow Down." I replied verbally: "Alright Lord, right after this hill." A moment later, and VERY FORCEFULLY the same thing came to me: "SLOW DOWN!!! I applied the brake, but too late: The truck became airborne and started to tumble. I had only time to cry out TO JESUS: "Christ redeem me!" When I awoke the truck was destroyed, and blood was pouring out of my head.

Although disoriented, I had enough presence of mind to point to the blood flow and say: "In the Name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth: STOP!" The blood flow stanched instantly! Barely able to walk from blood loss, and mentally disoriented, I managed to walk in the 115 degree heat to a small farm I had seen about 2 miles back. I found my back was horribly painful, so I had to walk hunched over; I was covered with blood from my face to my waist. Arriving at the house, the woman I saw tending the garden, turned out to be a Registered Nurse, who took me into her home, and began first aid treatment. Even this Registered Nurse was visibly shaken by my condition. She warned me not to move my arms or back, because my ribs were severely broken, and I would puncture my lungs. Two of the ribs were ready to break through the skin and become compound fractures.

I asked her to drive me to my brother's farm which was about 15 miles distant. My brother had been a medic in the Navy, and a Special Forces man, so he had treated a lot of combat injuries. When we arrived there, I knew it was bad, because even Gary seemed very concerned. He also told me not to move because my ribs were so badly broken. He began driving me to the nearest town with medical facilites, about 35 miles away, but his truck started to break down, and we had to stop and call for an ambulance at a small hamlet nearby. The ambulance came, and all the ambulance attendants also told me not to move, the ribs were so badly broken.

We finally arrived at a medical clinic in Buckeye, Arizona, where the nurses and doctor all once again told me the ribs were very badly broken, and said not to move at all. All this time, no one would let me lie down because the injuries were so severe, so I was standing or sitting in great discomfort this whole time.

BUT I HAD BEEN PRAYING THROUGH JESUS CHRIST! Finally as the nurses came by one more time to tell me not to move at all, I looked up at them and said: "I have been praying for three hours now: If God is ever going to heal me, He will do it now. IN THE NAME OF JESUS!" And with that I straightened up and threw my arms back!

The nurses immediately rushed toward me, because they thought blood would come spurting out of my mouth from ruptured lungs, but instead, I sighed in relief from all the pain. They RAN, and got the Doctor, who also came RUNNING! They immediately put me in an xray machine, and the puzzled Doctor now said there were NO BROKEN BONES. The massive bruising on my back outlined where the broken bones had almost punctured the skin only moments before....but now they were completely healed!

Friend this is MY proof that Jesus Christ IS GOD!!!!

And my friend, although Moslem people have murdered over 100 of my personal friends and professional colleages in the last decade and a half, every single day I pray for the Moslem world, and the Moslem people; that they may come to know this wonderful, wonderful Jesus Christ, Who is so good, and kind, and loving; our 'Glorious God and Savior, Jesus Christ'!

[nebula]

Hi again, Hani!

I feel as much swamped by your responses as you are by the many who respond to you - there's a lot there to read and sort through!

What I find intersting is that every time a Muslim posts on the Board discussing who Jesus is, they use the exact same arguments. I do wonder if you have read the New Testament for yourself? Or is there some training manual on how to refute Christianity that you draw from?

Seriously - have you actually read the New Testament for yourself?

If you did, you might see a mode of ministry that Jesus did. It is true Jesus never stood on top of the hill praoclaiming, "I am Messiah! Worship me!"

Rather, He allowed the people the opportunity to discover His identity for themselves.

Here's an example:

Matthew 11

2 And when John had heard in prison about the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples 3 and said to Him, "Are You the Coming One, or do we look for another?"

4 Jesus answered and said to them, "Go and tell John the things which you hear and see: 5 The blind see and the lame walk; the lepers are cleansed and the deaf hear; the dead are raised up and the poor have the gospel preached to them. 6 And blessed is he who is not offended because of Me."

Here, Jesus is alluding to a prophecy in Isaiah:

Isaiah 61:1,2

1 The Spirit of the Lord God is on Me,

because the Lord has anointed Me

to bring good news to the poor.

He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,

to proclaim liberty to the captives,

and freedom to the prisoners; 2 to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor,

and the day of our God's vengeance;

to comfort all who mourn,

This is the same prophecy Jesus used here:

Luke 4

16 So He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. And as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read. 17 And He was handed the book of the prophet Isaiah. And when He had opened the book, He found the place where it was written:

18 "The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, Because He has anointed Me To preach the gospel to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives And recovery of sight to the blind, To set at liberty those who are oppressed; 19 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord."

20 Then He closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all who were in the synagogue were fixed on Him. 21 And He began to say to them, "Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing."

You see here, Jesus is clearly speaking of Himself with this.

So even though He never directly say, "Bow down to Me," or the like, He spoke many things by implication of who He was - and those that rejected Him did so for those claims He made, which it is clear they recognized.

You can see this if you read the Gospels - Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.

[Guest Hani_]

Seriously - have you actually read the New Testament for yourself?

yes lots of times and words of jesus were like a path of light to me .

[ayin jade]

whats weird ... why would GOd be shy to declare that he is really GOd ? and leave it as a puzzle ?

The bible says that Jesus spoke in parables:

Mat 13:10 And the disciples said to Him, Why do You speak to them in parables?

Mat 13:11 He answered and said to them, Because it is given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of Heaven, but it is not given to them.

God isnt shy to declare Jesus is Lord. The word

[Guest Hani_]

dear ayin ...

u didnt understand my question ....

let me repeat it for u ...

can GOd die in any way man ????

can GOd be killed in any way man ?

ask ur self ayin ... and u will find the clear answer which no one can deny

[nebula]

Jesus shy?!

No!

If He was shy, He wouldn't have said such things as, "I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world." (John 6:51) A lot if followers left Him that day because they did not like the claims He was making about Himself.

Can God be killed?

This body of flesh can be killed.

God manifest in the flesh (And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory. - 1 Timothy 3:16) was in a body of flesh that could be killed - but just the body!

How else could He have become the atoning sacrifice for our sin?

(You know - the reason John the Baptist proclaimed Jesus as "the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world." - John 1:29)

[Guest Hani_]

we will discuss the issue of GOd getting killed on the cross by jews

in another new subject inshallah

my best wishes to all of u