10 Ways To Measure Your Spiritual Growth

[mrs]

There is good in humans though, not absolute good, but good none the less. We need Christ, but at the same time, God still gives enough grace to mankind for us to perform good deeds...if He didn't, we wouldn't exist.

"There is none that doeth good, no not one."

"Whatever is not of faith is sin."

[mike2]

Spiritual growth is dependant upon your growth as a human being. If you're a great spiritual person but a bad worker, bad father, or a mediocre human....then there is no growth period.

A. kerdos

Would you mind giving more of your thoughts on this

mike2

[apothanein kerdos]

Looks like what I'm teaching is unfortunately novel. The irnoic part is, it is all comming from Protestants, and what I'm teaching is exactly what the reformation of Luther, Calvin, and others, was exactly about!

Before I go on, i HIGHLY encourage you to read the following books that deal with this issue on a deeper level:

"Heaven is a place on earth: Why everything you do matters to God." Dr. Michael Wittmer

"The Call: Finding and Fulfilling God's Purpose in your life." Dr. Os Guinness

"How Now Shall we Live?" Dr. Chuck Colson

"Total Truth: Liberating Christianity from it's cultural captivity." Nancy Pearcey

"How should we live then: The rise and decline of western thought and culture Francis Schaeffer

True Spirituality Francis Schaeffer

A Christian Manifesto Francis Schaeffer

Here is an essay I wrote. I need to update it some (it's wrong in some parts) but it gets the overall idea across.

There ar emore, but that is what i hav read in the last month and a half and honestly, they are vitally important works.

To answer the questions and objections directly:

The good in natural man comes from one source. THE FRUIT OF THE TREE OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL. And guess what man was judge according to this so called GOOD. Christ was crucified to deliver us from this so called GOOD. In man there is NO GOOD for man was judged in Christ. Once we realize God's veiw of us then we we would be all the more better. For we would allow Christ to fully live out His Life in us.

If there is no good in man than there is no good in God. By saying there is no good in us you inevitably mock God. Man contains good but more often than not chooses to act upon evil because of the fall. We are marred images of God, both spiritual and physical. We can obtain a great physical condition, but we are still mortal and fragile. We can obstain a great spiritual condition, but we can still fall into sin. We are in God's image and though we are not absolutely good, we contain goodness within us. I can find 10 more scriptures to the one you'll use to support your position. You'll go to Romans and refer to, "There is none that seeks God." Unfortunately, this won't help your position because I'll turn to the OT and show you through various elements where the pagans still worked for good. If man had no good, then without Christ we would not be capable of good, meaning anytime we showed self-restraint, we'd be performing good, which supposedly we cannot do. Fact is, expirience, observation, and scripture prove your position false.

I also agree that makes no sense.You can't be 'a great spiritual person' and a bad worker,father, or what have you. The closer one is to God the more Christlike they will become - which is one of the main points of the OP - and they will therefore not display the traits you mention.

You're right, true spirituality requires we reflect Christ in everything. Unfortunately, the OP does not indicate this. Instead it talks about "desire" (just because I desire a Lexus doesn't mean I'll ever aquire it) and what Christianity has become; spiritual excerises whilst ignoring the physical. As for how this ends up being:

There are parents that drag their children to church on Wednesday and deprive them of a baseball game. There are parents that will spend so much time "fellowshiping" that they often take their children out of social activities so they [the parents] have time to continue in fellowshipping. There are parents that will give up a Monday or Tuesday night to go on visitation, even if this means missing their child's performance in a school recital. There are parents that will get upset (not violent, just frustrated) if their children interupt their quiet time to tell them [the parents] about their [the child's] day.

Sometimes, in our pursuit of spiritual excellence, we become poor humans.

What about sense of community?

Spiritual growth is dependant upon your growth as a human being. If you're a great spiritual person but a bad worker, bad father, or a mediocre human....then there is no growth period.

A. Kerdos,

Would you mind giving more of your thoughts on this

mike2

There are too many Christians in this world that think to be spiritual they have to do "spiritual things." In other words, if I spend time with my family, doing a good job at work, and hanging out with my friends....but forget to witness or read my bible that day....I had an unspiritual day. True Spirituality is showing God in every aspect....I may not witness or read my bible that day, but I still had a very Godly day in that I fulfilled the Cultural Mandate.

"There is none that doeth good, no not one."

"Whatever is not of faith is sin."

LOL. At least quote it correctly mate.

You're refering to Romans 3:10-11, there is none righteous, there is none that seeks God. Very famous and very misunderstood. For one, righteousness and good works are often mutually exclusive. I can perform good works without being righteous. The word dikaios means, "keeping ALL the commands of God." Paul is saying no one keeps all the commands of God, no body. This does not exclude us from committing good deeds. Good deeds do not save us at all...however this doesn't prevent us from committing them.

As for Romans 14:23, where you only quote a portion of the passage and take it out of context, it still doesn't apply. I am not saying good works save people nor am I saying it justifies thes epeople. What I am saying is they can commit them. As Francis Schaeffer points out in "True Spirituality", it is possible to commit good works and sin in doing so. If we do it for ourselves, the work is still good, but it doesn't mean anything. Fact remains, it's still a good work.

The original post calls for us to do all these spiritual excersises. That's great, if I wanted to become nothing more than a spirit. Fact is, I'm human, I'm flesh and spirit.....so if I ignore my "physical" duties....then anything spiritual I do is null and void.

[Rania]

Wow. This was such a good post to begin with.

[mike2]

Spiritual growth is dependant upon your growth as a human being. If you're a great spiritual person but a bad worker, bad father, or a mediocre human....then there is no growth period.

That makes no sense. I am sorry to say it like that but it really does not. There is no good in man. This is why the Cross was so necessary, any good that man thought he was, was put on the cross. In Christ there is only Him. So how can I be a bad father but living a spiritual Life. That would negate the power of Christ Life. I will say that there are things that we do hold on to, but when we see that Christ is our Life and allow Him to be such then you dont measure you growth, you measure His growth in you. How much are room are we allowing Christ to have? This is all God cares about. How much of His Son He sees

There are parents that drag their children to church on Wednesday and deprive them of a baseball game. There are parents that will spend so much time "fellowshiping" that they often take their children out of social activities so they [the parents] have time to continue in fellowshipping. There are parents that will give up a Monday or Tuesday night to go on visitation, even if this means missing their child's performance in a school recital. There are parents that will get upset (not violent, just frustrated) if their children interupt their quiet time to tell them [the parents] about their [the child's] day.

Sometimes, in our pursuit of spiritual excellence, we become poor humans.

There is good in humans though, not absolute good, but good none the less. We need Christ, but at the same time, God still gives enough grace to mankind for us to perform good deeds...if He didn't, we wouldn't exist.

This is a real interesting thing you have hit on here.

The way I undrstand what you are describing can be seen all over our Christian family.

The key you have hit on here is THE PURSUIT ,

The persuit of knowlegde does not bring more faith and spiritual growth, knowledge does

that spiritual growth shows itself in our actions (evidance the positive change in someone born again)

I think if our actions are manifesting the things you have described then it is an indication of our poor spiritual growth.

With good spiritual growth our love and concern for others would be different from the examples you have described

As a result I believe our growth as a human being is dependant on spiritual growth, the opposite of your thought

mike2

[apothanein kerdos]

Spiritual growth is dependant upon your growth as a human being. If you're a great spiritual person but a bad worker, bad father, or a mediocre human....then there is no growth period.

That makes no sense. I am sorry to say it like that but it really does not. There is no good in man. This is why the Cross was so necessary, any good that man thought he was, was put on the cross. In Christ there is only Him. So how can I be a bad father but living a spiritual Life. That would negate the power of Christ Life. I will say that there are things that we do hold on to, but when we see that Christ is our Life and allow Him to be such then you dont measure you growth, you measure His growth in you. How much are room are we allowing Christ to have? This is all God cares about. How much of His Son He sees

There are parents that drag their children to church on Wednesday and deprive them of a baseball game. There are parents that will spend so much time "fellowshiping" that they often take their children out of social activities so they [the parents] have time to continue in fellowshipping. There are parents that will give up a Monday or Tuesday night to go on visitation, even if this means missing their child's performance in a school recital. There are parents that will get upset (not violent, just frustrated) if their children interupt their quiet time to tell them [the parents] about their [the child's] day.

Sometimes, in our pursuit of spiritual excellence, we become poor humans.

There is good in humans though, not absolute good, but good none the less. We need Christ, but at the same time, God still gives enough grace to mankind for us to perform good deeds...if He didn't, we wouldn't exist.

This is a real interesting thing you have hit on here.

The way I undrstand what you are describing can be seen all over our Christian family.

The key you have hit on here is THE PURSUIT ,

The persuit of knowlegde does not bring more faith and spiritual growth, knowledge does

that spiritual growth shows itself in our actions (evidance the positive change in someone born again)

I think if our actions are manifesting the things you have described then it is an indication of our poor spiritual growth.

With good spiritual growth our love and concern for others would be different from the examples you have described

As a result I believe our growth as a human being is dependant on spiritual growth, the opposite of your thought

mike2

The problem is what is presented in the OP is not a promise to spiritual growth. I can desire all those things, but until i act on them, it doesn't mean anything. If we take the desire to mean "spiritual" and action to mean "physical," then the two are linked; I cannot do one without the other.

You still end up in a misplaced metaphysical dualistic paradigm by placing the "spiritual" above the "physical," which is where the OP was at.

[apothanein kerdos]

Wow. This was such a good post to begin with.

But theologically off....that's what I am currently trying to prove. Just because something warms us up insides doesn't mean it's correct or good.

[apothanein kerdos]

start another thread and i'll continue this discussion. As it is, you're not even on topic.

[Kabowd]

Man ate of the fruit of the Tree of the knowledge of GOOD and EVIL. This was off limits to man. Man did not know good or evil before he hate of the fruit. All he knew was God. But Adam ate of this fruit so inturn he knew GOOD and EVIL. What happened to Adam, he was crucified in Christ. Adam is the Old man, Christ is the New. We live by His life when we are saved, because ALL that was in ADAM (who we lived by before we were saved) was AGAINST God. Adam had a choice in the garden to eat of the Tree of Life which is Christ, or to eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil (which is death). He chose the latter. Hence man was judged in Christ. Mans GOOD was Judged as well as Mans Evil. God cares nothing for what is done in our natural ability. Mans ability is useless, hopeless and pitiful. Jesus came not only to our deliverence from sin but He also came to be OUR LIFE and our ABILITY. God only wants to see His Son. Jesus is the only one well pleasing to God. If man was well pleasing to God then Jesus would have had no need to come. But mans ability is EVIL. Mans GOOD is bad, as well as mans EVIL.

Some of what you have stated is true, and some of it is absolutely false. You are mixing gnosticism with Christianity which is giving you a skewed view. Are you familiar with gnostiscism? It was the primary enemy of the early church, and Paul fought it adamantly. Gnostics believed that anything that wasn't "spiritual" was tainted or evil (which traces back to their incorrect belief about creation and the fall). This misplaced metaphysical dualism seeped into the church (and is making a return), it basically teaches that anything physical, natural or material is wrong/evil and that the only thing that matters is "spiritual" things. On the surface it doesn't seem so wrong, afterall, it is true that apart from Christ and redemption we are hopelessly and eternally lost (separated from God). It is also true that there is no "good" thing we can do were it not for the grace of God. He alone created good. However, where your belief is going wrong is when you take what is natural and separate it from everything else God created. You draw an invisible vertical line between what is evil and what is sacred, when that line should be drawn horizontally and separate God from the rest of creation. God created natrual/physical things just as He created what is spiritual. He declared all of it "good". While yes, the fall changed everything .... it did not completely destroy the goodness God created. Sin is powerful, but it is not more powerful than God's goodness. In fact, if we look to what happened in the garden, the very thing satan used to draw Adam and Eve away from God was that doubt he planted in them that perhaps God is not quite as "good" as He had presented Himself to be. It's an attack on God's goodness and His character. This carries over when we begin to view the things that God created as lacking in goodness too. If God cares "nothing for what is done in natural ability" then why are we physical beings? Why do we work or have the ability to work? Why do we rest? Why do we eat, laugh or play? If matter or what is physical is evil, how could God come into flesh in the form of Christ? In the OT, what was the point of all of those precise commands for the Levites about their diet, sexual habits, and how they handled things? It's because those things matter to God. In the same way now, Paul teaches in 1 Corinthians 10:31 that whatsoever we do (eat, drink or anything "physical" included) we can and should do it all for the glory of the Lord. How much more clearly can he state that natural things we do matter to God?

Secondly, where do you get the belief that God "only wants to see His Son"? Or that our abilities are evil? Who created those abilities? God created each of us in His own image. We are each unique and God graciously implanted each of us with certain abilities, qualities and gifts. If He only wanted to see His Son, why did He create Adam and Eve in the first place? Why did He create you or me? It's true that we have no "righteousness" of our own (ethically), and it's further true that we cannot achieve holiness apart from Christ...this does not mean that everything else (ontologically) is evil/wrong or does not matter. As Wittmer says in his book that a.k. referred to "Rather than think that God's primacy means that nothing else matters, it is precisely because God is number one that everything else does matter."

actually I think it is on topic. All of that was said to say this one basic thing. That you can not grow in spirit by natural means. That is impossible. If it were not, then there would have not been a need for salvation because man, thru his own ABILITY could have accomplished it. But since there is no good in man then growth is not of man but of God. The Father only wants to see the Son, so anything that I do apart for the Life of Christ is not pleasing to God. Even those thing that are spiritual. Christ has accomplished it all. He stated it is FINISHED. All things are under His feet. Let us allow Him room to live His Life thru us.

You're repeating yourself, but it still doesn't make it true. We cannot achieve salvation apart from God, but this does not mean that the things we do in the natural cannot be pleasing to God or help us grow spiritually (I refer you again to 1 Cor. 10:31, but also 1 Tim. 4:1-5). To say God cannot use what is natural or physical to mature us in the spiritual places a limitation on God which does not exist. Listen to Paul's words in Colossians:

"If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as, "Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!" (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)--in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men? These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence." (2:20-23)

He was teaching against gnosticism by the way. Saying that we should only be considered with "spiritual" things has the appearance of wisdom just as Paul said. But we also learn in Scripture that Christ is the Creator, the creation is God's..therefore we should not despise what is created or physically created things. Instead, as believers, we should cultivate it and improve it for God's glory. In this way, taking a swim in the ocean or wrestling with your child can be equally pleasing to God as reading your bible or praying. We are created beings living in a created world. Our goal is to use the resources He has given us to bring Him glory. This is the part of the redemption story that you are leaving out.

[apothanein kerdos]

Man ate of the fruit of the Tree of the knowledge of GOOD and EVIL. This was off limits to man. Man did not know good or evil before he hate of the fruit. All he knew was God. But Adam ate of this fruit so inturn he knew GOOD and EVIL. What happened to Adam, he was crucified in Christ. Adam is the Old man, Christ is the New. We live by His life when we are saved, because ALL that was in ADAM (who we lived by before we were saved) was AGAINST God. Adam had a choice in the garden to eat of the Tree of Life which is Christ, or to eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil (which is death). He chose the latter. Hence man was judged in Christ. Mans GOOD was Judged as well as Mans Evil. God cares nothing for what is done in our natural ability. Mans ability is useless, hopeless and pitiful. Jesus came not only to our deliverence from sin but He also came to be OUR LIFE and our ABILITY. God only wants to see His Son. Jesus is the only one well pleasing to God. If man was well pleasing to God then Jesus would have had no need to come. But mans ability is EVIL. Mans GOOD is bad, as well as mans EVIL.

Some of what you have stated is true, and some of it is absolutely false. You are mixing gnosticism with Christianity which is giving you a skewed view. Are you familiar with gnostiscism? It was the primary enemy of the early church, and Paul fought it adamantly. Gnostics believed that anything that wasn't "spiritual" was tainted or evil (which traces back to their incorrect belief about creation and the fall). This misplaced metaphysical dualism seeped into the church (and is making a return), it basically teaches that anything physical, natural or material is wrong/evil and that the only thing that matters is "spiritual" things. On the surface it doesn't seem so wrong, afterall, it is true that apart from Christ and redemption we are hopelessly and eternally lost (separated from God). It is also true that there is no "good" thing we can do were it not for the grace of God. He alone created good. However, where your belief is going wrong is when you take what is natural and separate it from everything else God created. You draw an invisible vertical line between what is evil and what is sacred, when that line should be drawn horizontally and separate God from the rest of creation. God created natrual/physical things just as He created what is spiritual. He declared all of it "good". While yes, the fall changed everything .... it did not completely destroy the goodness God created. Sin is powerful, but it is not more powerful than God's goodness. In fact, if we look to what happened in the garden, the very thing satan used to draw Adam and Eve away from God was that doubt he planted in them that perhaps God is not quite as "good" as He had presented Himself to be. It's an attack on God's goodness and His character. This carries over when we begin to view the things that God created as lacking in goodness too. If God cares "nothing for what is done in natural ability" then why are we physical beings? Why do we work or have the ability to work? Why do we rest? Why do we eat, laugh or play? If matter or what is physical is evil, how could God come into flesh in the form of Christ? In the OT, what was the point of all of those precise commands for the Levites about their diet, sexual habits, and how they handled things? It's because those things matter to God. In the same way now, Paul teaches in 1 Corinthians 10:31 that whatsoever we do (eat, drink or anything "physical" included) we can and should do it all for the glory of the Lord. How much more clearly can he state that natural things we do matter to God?

Secondly, where do you get the belief that God "only wants to see His Son"? Or that our abilities are evil? Who created those abilities? God created each of us in His own image. We are each unique and God graciously implanted each of us with certain abilities, qualities and gifts. If He only wanted to see His Son, why did He create Adam and Eve in the first place? Why did He create you or me? It's true that we have no "righteousness" of our own (ethically), and it's further true that we cannot achieve holiness apart from Christ...this does not mean that everything else (ontologically) is evil/wrong or does not matter. As Wittmer says in his book that a.k. referred to "Rather than think that God's primacy means that nothing else matters, it is precisely because God is number one that everything else does matter."

actually I think it is on topic. All of that was said to say this one basic thing. That you can not grow in spirit by natural means. That is impossible. If it were not, then there would have not been a need for salvation because man, thru his own ABILITY could have accomplished it. But since there is no good in man then growth is not of man but of God. The Father only wants to see the Son, so anything that I do apart for the Life of Christ is not pleasing to God. Even those thing that are spiritual. Christ has accomplished it all. He stated it is FINISHED. All things are under His feet. Let us allow Him room to live His Life thru us.

You're repeating yourself, but it still doesn't make it true. We cannot achieve salvation apart from God, but this does not mean that the things we do in the natural cannot be pleasing to God or help us grow spiritually (I refer you again to 1 Cor. 10:31, but also 1 Tim. 4:1-5). To say God cannot use what is natural or physical to mature us in the spiritual places a limitation on God which does not exist. Listen to Paul's words in Colossians:

"If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as, "Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!" (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)--in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men? These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence." (2:20-23)

He was teaching against gnosticism by the way. Saying that we should only be considered with "spiritual" things has the appearance of wisdom just as Paul said. But we also learn in Scripture that Christ is the Creator, the creation is God's..therefore we should not despise what is created or physically created things. Instead, as believers, we should cultivate it and improve it for God's glory. In this way, taking a swim in the ocean or wrestling with your child can be equally pleasing to God as reading your bible or praying. We are created beings living in a created world. Our goal is to use the resources He has given us to bring Him glory. This is the part of the redemption story that you are leaving out.

That sums up everything I"ve been saying to you Ruck, and it's an adequate reply.