Predetermined?

[Catsmeow]

You say where is the Christian love, it is because of this love I proclaim truth to you.

I've read your posts. There's not even a hint of love in them.

[Guest Duane]

I keep hearing about this seed and that seed. I had always thought the literal word "seed" referred to "sperm", (genetic material of the father).

I suggest the word, "seed" (in this context) is an adjective for the "spirit" of a man.

In other words, our sinful nature is indeed a nature wrought from Satan himself...a spirit of disobedience and rebellion.

When Jesus Christ died on that cross on Calvary, he not only justified us before the Father, he provided us a NEW nature...a holy nature, via the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Before, when we were helpless and unable to do anything about our sin nature, we became NEW creations and now able and equipped to be transformed by the renewing of our minds.

We are new "seed" (an adjective here). We are no longer fornicators, adulterers, greedy, immoral, etc. but we put on the "new man" and are continually being transformed into the likeness of Christ Jesus.

In a nutshell: I think the word, "seed" itself can be used in either a literal context (ex. seed of Abraham) or in a descriptive or figurative sense, "seed" referring to the "spirit" or "heart" of a man...(His nature).

Catsmeow, I think you really hit the nail on the head with this:

"I suggest the word, "seed" (in this context) is an adjective for the "spirit" of a man."

And I was trying to make that exact point in my thread about the serpent, when it was dropped.

If you will look at the wording of when Adam and Eve conceived Seth, it says that God gave Eve a new seed to replace that of Abel.

So in this context, since females do not produce sperm, it must mean it in a spiritual nature.

Abel was the good son, killed by the evil son. The seed that was Cain was of the wicked one, while the seed that was Abel was of the good one, or God. Cain was of the devil, and Abel, and then Seth were of the Holy Spirit.

There are two vines growing, one of which will be plucked up by the roots. There is the vine that originally came from Seth, and that vine produced Jesus, although Jesus is that vine in the first place. And there is a vine of the wicked one.

Predestinated and predetermined are essentially the same thing. But I see no one has commented on the first passage of this thread.

9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun. 10 Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us. 11 There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after.

Do any of you really accept the full import of this passage? It means that what we have done before is happening again, and will happen yet again. We have no rememberance of the previous time, nor will we remember this time in the time to come.

Our salvation was worked out before anything was ever actually created as physical substance. Before the foundation of the world. We are basically re-enacting those events, following in our own footsteps, so to speak.

But the working out was we ourselves making our own choices through our own free will. So the decisions we make today are the same as those we made then. We are living and doing, in substance, what we did as spirit. So when the question as to why we should do anything now because it is all predestined and if it matters, yes it does. It is the actions that we do now that may bring others into the Light, because they are the actions we did before. We did it, so therefore we will do them, so we should do them.

Any of this make sense to you? It is not the easiest thing to explain, even though it is clear in my mind.

We are predestined, but ultimately it is we that have predetermined our own fate. God gave us free will, and God know all the decisions that we made, so He knows all the decisions that we will make. There is nothing new under the sun, and the thing that hath been, it is that which shall be.

I just came in to work today to check this thread, so I may not be here very long. Have to run to Cosco for a few things and get back home to the wife and kiddies. And I have no internet connection there. So if I do not get back to you again today, I will be back Monday.

I will make a rather off topic remark here, but it is something to think about.

Much of what is understood a allegory or symbolism in the Bible is anything but that. If you know the correct context in which to view it, it makes perfect sense in a literal fashion.

The vines are the perfect example.

Do any of you see a vine growing? I mean literally.

I do. But then I can view things from outside of time, to some extent.

Think about this. We, as we go through time, see only the present as the present advances. So we see each of us as a unique individual with certain boundries to our physical being.

But, if you view from outside of time, as time advances, then our current form is merely the tip of the iceburge, so to speak.

There is you when you were born, and there is you now. But there was never a time that you did not exist during that strech of time. It is a continuous progression of growth.

So, from outside of time we would look more like a long snake of flesh, culminating in the body that we have right now.

Or a vine growing.

And since the baby is attached to the mother through the cord, the two are as one until the cord is cut. Like a brance from the vine.

And from outside of time it looks exactly this way. And the vine only grows through the female. It is the seed of the female that is carried on.

The male introduces its own vine when the sperm meets the egg, so to speak. And the two intermingle as the tares and the wheat.

But in the ultimate sense, there has been a vine growing ever since Adam and Eve, a fleshly vine that is unbroken and continuous up until this very day.

So the vine that grows from the male (Cain) is the one that is plucked up, while the vine that grows from the female (Seth, and ultimatly Jesus) is the one that ultimately grows.

And it is from the vine of the female, that Jesus came.

And since Jesus had no earthly father, but is the only begotten Son of God, Jesus has none of the serpent seed in Him, except that which may have been physically introduced through reproduction. He has the seed of the woman, the Holy Spirit, and the seed of the heavenly Father, the Holy Father. This is why He was able to lead a perfect and sinless life, and why He was able to overcome the devil's temptations.

Anyway, just something to think about.

Now, back to our regurlarly scheduled thread on predeterminism.

[BlindSeeker]

. . .  since Jesus had no earthly father, but is the only begotten Son of God, Jesus has none of the serpent seed in Him, except that which may have been physically introduced through reproduction. He has the seed of the woman, the Holy Spirit, and the seed of the heavenly Father, the Holy Father. This is why He was able to lead a perfect and sinless life, and why He was able to overcome the devil's temptations . . .

And to think I always thought it was because He was God manifested in the flesh.

• Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
  
  Mt 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
  Isa 7:14
  
  Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
  
  Ac 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which He [God] hath purchased with his own blood.
  
  1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
  
  Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.
  

[eric]

Up until now I have really appreciated the input of the more mature members of this board. (mature, that is, in their study and knowledge of God's word.) regarding predestination and foreknowledge and just when I was beginning to learn something, up crops the old Adam is the serpent theory again. And that's all it is> a theory<. So please, can we stick to the topic in hand. Thank you and bless you.

[jesussaves]

I think many people get all confused over the word predestination. Let me see if I can simplify it and hopefully shed some light on the subject.

First of all the Lord is not willing that any man should perish, but that all would come to the saving knowledge of Christ. So, way back when the serpent beguiled Eve, the Lord had already predetermined Jesus would bruise the head of the serpent. The Lord already decided that all who would believe that Jesus was the only begotten Son of God would be saved. It was always His devine plan that Jesus was going to be the door that leads to everlasting life and anyone who wanted to come through that door could enter in.

That is predestination.

We..those of us who have received Christ, are the ones the Lord was thinking of when He planned from the first Adam to send a second Adam. Jesus is our much loved Savior and ALL who believe can be saved.

[BlindSeeker]

I think many people get all confused over the word predestination. Let me see if I can simplify it and hopefully shed some light on the subject.

First of all the Lord is not willing that any man should perish, but that all would come to the saving knowledge of Christ. So, way back when the serpent beguiled Eve, the Lord had already predetermined Jesus would bruise the head of the serpent. The Lord already decided that all who would believe that Jesus was the only begotten Son of God would be saved. It was always His devine plan that Jesus was going to be the door that leads to everlasting life and anyone who wanted to come through that door could enter in.

That is predestination.

We..those of us who have received Christ, are the ones the Lord was thinking of when He planned from the first Adam to send a second Adam. Jesus is our much loved Savior and ALL who believe can be saved.

AMEN!

• Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
  14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
  12 But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name.
  
  Ac 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
  35 But in every nation he that feareth Him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with Him.
  36 [This is] The Word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ:
  
  Ro 16:20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.
  25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
  26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known

to all nations for the obedience of faith:
27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

[Catsmeow]

Patience. I think Duane is a new brother and he's just trying to work through some things.

This is a learning process and we're all growing.

[godrulz]

Is man totally depraved? Is election unconditional? Is the atonement limited? Is grace irresistible? Do all saints persevere? This is Calvinism (TULIP) with an emphasis on predeterminism/meticulous sovereignty.

Arminianism and Open Theism emphasize free will (not at the expense of God being sovereign over the universe):

2 Peter 3:9 "He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but EVERYONE to come to repentance."

I Tim. 2:4 "...who wants ALL men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth."

Man has a degree of physical and moral depravity, but is not paralzyed from taking steps towards God. God elects the Church and those who freely respond to the Gospel. The atonement is provision for all men. Man can and does persist in rebellion. Some saints become apostate.

God, in love, seeks to draw all men to Himself. A love relationship must be freely chosen and maintained by both parties. If some do not repent, it is not because they are not of the arbitrarily chosen elect (God is impartial if He is just). Simply, it is because they selfishly refuse to surrender to God's supremecy. John 5:40 "...yet you REFUSE (free will choice) to come to me to have life."

Jn:3:16,36 Believes vs Rejects (free will).

[eric]

Cats is right we are all trying to learn. For instance I think I would be able to get a handle on predestination,if I could come to grips with "whom He foreknew."

Now we know that God is omnecient (all knowing) So who were the"whom" that Paul was referring to when he was talking to the Roman church? Was it each individual that was born down through each generation or or a certain race of people or all of mankind in general?

Did God for instance, in His foerknowledge know that Adan was going to rebel, latch on to the soul of mankind and infect him with an incurable disease called sin. There is no cure for sin, only forgiveness. So what I am trying to say, that if God knew that we were all going to be sinners, where does predestination come into the equasion. Some calvanists say that He predestinated some to have eternal life with Him and some to have eternal life with the devil, but I can't swallow that. I will go along with what Godrulz maintains in 2 peter.

And Jesus said 'come to me all ye who are burdened and heavily laden and I will give you rest.' He didn't say come to me all those that have been chosen by the Father for eternal life with Him and the rest can go jump in the lake. He said when the Son of man is lifted I will draw all men to myself.

Yes I am a bit confused and Yes I know that I have a lot to learn and I hope what I have written makes some sense to some of you, because if I was to believe what some people say, all the people that I have known who are not saved and are out in the outer darkness gnashing their teeth were only taking up space here on earth in the first place because that's where they were predestinated to be from the time they were born. And I dont buy that. Hey enjoy your day with the Lord all of you.

[BlindSeeker]

Cats is right we are all trying to learn. For instance I think I would be able to get a handle on predestination,if I could come to grips with "whom He foreknew."

Now we know that God is omnecient (all knowing) So who were the"whom" that Paul was referring to when he was talking to the Roman church? Was it each individual that was born down through each generation or or a certain race of people or all of mankind in general? . . . .

A careful study of Romans willreveal the Apostle Paul constantly going back and forth addressing at one time the Jewish believers and the another time addressing the Gentile believers.

The "whom" is the Gentiles being called to partakers of the promises of God . . . the same as the subject is being addressed in Ephesians chapters 1 & 2, that God "hath raised us up [Jews and Gentiles] together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus . . . that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye [Gentiles] who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ."

Paul makes this clear in his opening comment to the Roman Church

• Ro 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
  6 Among whom are ye [Gentiles] also the called of Jesus Christ:
  
  
  He scolds the Jews that " restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God," that it is because of them "God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written."
  
  He clarifies to the whole church of "he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."
  
  He later acknowledges that there is an advandage to being a Jew --
  
  
  • Ro 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
    2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
    
    
    
    • Ro 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
      20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
      21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
      22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
      23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
      24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
      25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
      26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
      27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
      28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
      29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
      30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
      
      
      
      • Ro 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
        2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
        3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
        
        
        
        • Ro 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
          
      13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
      14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
      15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
      16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
      17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
      

      Paul makes it clear that the promise of God was not just for Abraham, or the Jews only --

      Ro 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;

      24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

      25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

      Paul reasons with them both that the curse of the sin nature (doing that which is right in our own eyes) was not limited to just the Gentiles, or the Jews, but was common to all humanity . . . and likewise the promise of redemption through the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world.

      Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

      13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

      14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

      15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

      16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

      17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

      18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

      19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

      He speaks to the Jew ,"Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,)" that they as stewards of the Mosaic law were obligated to keep it for a season . . . till it fulfilled it purpose, " how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?" But the taht being dead they are all free to walk in the simplicity of Christ.

      Ro 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

      2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

      3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

      4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

      5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

      6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

      7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

      8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

      9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

      10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

      11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

      12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

      13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

      14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

      15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

      16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

      17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we [Jews and Gentiles] may be also glorified together.

      Paul clarifies that all men, or as the scripture says, the