Suicide

[Ovedya]

The Overcoming Life is a book by Watchman Nee. It's actually a very good book. But it has nothing whatsoever to do with this issue!

Also, the other title that OC eluded to was The Normal Christian Life, which is also a title by Watchman Nee, better known in contemporary Christian cirlces. Again, the book does not address the issue of suicide.

Both books help believers to identify, understand, and deal with various "blockages" to our spiritual life, but neither deals specifically with things like chronic depression, etc. They are not "Christian pychology." There are issues, such as chronic depression, chemincal imbalances, etc. that can take lifetimes to deal with and overcome. The books mentioned may help believers with these issues, but often it takes more.

I hope that the statement you made "the other title that OC eluded to was" was not referring to me.

As I have mentioned no books whatsoever within any of my post in this thread except for the holy scriptures.

For the record that statement is not true. If that statement is not referring to me then forgive me.

Openly Curious

Right you are! My apologies, I should have written "ruck1b."

[Openly Curious]

if the person be a christian then i would debate that they would still go to heaven as they were saved. but i am sure many will disagree

Hello Hannah,

I like your name and well I am one of those who disagree with your opinion. First because murder is a sin and I'm sure every Christian would accept it as being a sin as willsmon said in her post "Thou shalt not murder" so this is a commandment and law of God that carries penalties or has consequences if you break it.

We are told in 1 John that when we sin we have an advocate (lawyer) with the Father and if we are faithful to confess our sins then He is faithful and just to forgive us our tresspasses (sins).

Well the advocate is Jesus Christ who interceeds between us and the Father as Jesus shed his blood on the cross so that we can obtain his mercy in times of need. And if we will faithfully come to God and confess our faults and failures which are our transgressions against the commands and laws of God. Then if we will do that it tell us that God will be faithful and just to forgive us of our tresspasses. Because of the blood of his only begotten son that was shed for the atonement of those sins.

Now since that is the prescribe course for our sins, faults, failures, tresspasses, wickedness or whatever you want to call our wrong doings against the will of God we have to abide by that prescribed course if we want to be forgiven when we mess up and blow it.

Now if a person kills themselves they are gone there is no time left for them to be faithful and go to God and repent of their sin of murder for it is over for good in that persons life when they die.

One might say well I'll repent before I kill myself then I'll be forgiven and alright with God and everything will be all better for me. But that is only a lie the devil holds out for them to embrace because if they truly repented then they wouldn't willfully and knowing break the commandment of God that is not true repentance it's a Lie.

God Bless Hannah

Openly Curious

In my opinion, suicide cannot logically be called a sin. Sin is not sin until the act has been completed. Therefore, if suicide is a sin, it has to join Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit and become the second unforgiveable sin since to be a "suicide", the person has to die and once the act is carried out, the person dies quickly without a chance of reversing the action.

Scripture says that there is only ONE unforgiveable sin - Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (See Mt 12:31)

Suicide is a tragic result of severe mental illness. It is not a sin to die of lung cancer or liver disease or leukemia or any other physical illness. How, then, can it be a sin to die of a mental illness?

SLE

And it is an opinion in which I do not share with you.

OC

[nebula]

If you carry out wrong doing then you sin. Again not all suicide cases are mental illnesses. I've know people who had tragedies come in their lives and thought suicide was their answer because of the things they were having to live with as a result of the tragedies that came in their life. Well in my "Stand" it is not the answer for it is "wrong" it is a "sin" it is a "shame" it is "ugly" it is "dark and it is "condemning" in the sight of my God.

And you beleive that "beating them over the head" is going to help them?

[Ovedya]

if the person be a christian then i would debate that they would still go to heaven as they were saved. but i am sure many will disagree

Hello Hannah,

I like your name and well I am one of those who disagree with your opinion. First because murder is a sin and I'm sure every Christian would accept it as being a sin as willsmon said in her post "Thou shalt not murder" so this is a commandment and law of God that carries penalties or has consequences if you break it.

We are told in 1 John that when we sin we have an advocate (lawyer) with the Father and if we are faithful to confess our sins then He is faithful and just to forgive us our tresspasses (sins).

Well the advocate is Jesus Christ who interceeds between us and the Father as Jesus shed his blood on the cross so that we can obtain his mercy in times of need. And if we will faithfully come to God and confess our faults and failures which are our transgressions against the commands and laws of God. Then if we will do that it tell us that God will be faithful and just to forgive us of our tresspasses. Because of the blood of his only begotten son that was shed for the atonement of those sins.

Now since that is the prescribe course for our sins, faults, failures, tresspasses, wickedness or whatever you want to call our wrong doings against the will of God we have to abide by that prescribed course if we want to be forgiven when we mess up and blow it.

Now if a person kills themselves they are gone there is no time left for them to be faithful and go to God and repent of their sin of murder for it is over for good in that persons life when they die.

One might say well I'll repent before I kill myself then I'll be forgiven and alright with God and everything will be all better for me. But that is only a lie the devil holds out for them to embrace because if they truly repented then they wouldn't willfully and knowing break the commandment of God that is not true repentance it's a Lie.

God Bless Hannah

Openly Curious

In my opinion, suicide cannot logically be called a sin. Sin is not sin until the act has been completed. Therefore, if suicide is a sin, it has to join Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit and become the second unforgiveable sin since to be a "suicide", the person has to die and once the act is carried out, the person dies quickly without a chance of reversing the action.

Scripture says that there is only ONE unforgiveable sin - Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (See Mt 12:31)

Suicide is a tragic result of severe mental illness. It is not a sin to die of lung cancer or liver disease or leukemia or any other physical illness. How, then, can it be a sin to die of a mental illness?

SLE

And it is an opinion in which I do not share with you.

OC

Somehow I think that you missed the whole point. You don't have to directly state that suicide is, "The second unforgivable sin." The arguments you made logically point in that direction.

[Openly Curious]

This is what I believe on the matter. I believe when we get saved, all past sins are under the blood. I also believe any sins we commit through ignorance from that day forward are under the blood. I do not believe pre-meditated wilful sins are automatically covered by the blood. In the Old Testament God mentioned that there were animal sacrifices for the atonement of various sins done in ignorace. When speeking of wilful or presumptuous sins, he said such a person would be cut off from his people. In Romans, the Bible says that when we sin wilfully after coming to the knowledge of the truth, there is no more sacrifice for that sin. It doesn't say we cannot ask forgiveness and receive it, but the blood that saved us doesn't cover unconfessed wilful sins. That is why I believe if a person commits suicide, whether they be a Christian or not, they will wind up in hell. I also believe if a person commits murder and dies without having confessed his or her sin, whether they be a Christian or not, they will go to hell. On the other hand, if they simply get angry and say something they shouldn't have, they would not go to hell. It was not a pre-meditated sin. Once God brings the sin to their attention, at that point they must confess it.

Hey Butero,

Your theology just sounds hard to me. It is like you need a spiritual calculator to figuer out what sins God accepts and what sins God will not forgive you of. It just sounds really stressful to me. For me I believe that when Jesus died on the cross He died for all of my sins past, present and future. He forgave me when I received Jesus as Lord and Saviour 10 years ago by faith alone. Now I just have to worry about my fellowship with him. I don't worry about going to Hell anymore but being pleasing to God. Remaining in the Vine and bearing fruit. Again the fruit doesn't save but faith alone does.

Hello,

I know that this was meant for Butero,

But why do you need to worry about your fellowship?

Do you think that something can actually break that fellowship between you and Him?

If so, what is it that could break that fellowship between you and God?

Could it be the same thing that seperated you in the past before you got saved and restored to right fellowship with God?

Why did God say, he giveth more grace if one got it all at the time of salvation?

Why would we need him for if we already got everything we need from him?

Or why did he instruct us in his word to confess our faults to one another so one could be restored that was overtaken in a fault Galatian 6:1-2 ?

Could it perhaps be our present or future sins that we have not commited yet in this lifetime of ours be those things you are worrying about that will alienate or seperate you from God just in the same way your past sins alienated you from God in the which you had no fellowship until you confessed your sins that held you captive?

Could it not be the same with unconfessed sins we will yet commit in the present and future that will alienate us from God once again?

Does God allow or accept any sins of any kind?

Or, does God have pet sins in which one can engage in and He will overlook it if we choose those to commit?

Or, is all sins past, present and future tense offensive to God that we have in the past commited?

And in those moments of weaknesses when we will yet fall into sin and are overtaken by Satan again and are entangled again in bondage of sin whether it be in the present moment or in the moment of the future will not God yet again deliver us from bondage once again?

Or, do we need more grace?

You have been born again and know one can receive grace for their past sins so why would you not have yet the more faith to believe he could help you again if you were entangled again in a fault or sin in the future?

Again isn't it unconfessed sins we fall into that alienates us from God leaving us with no hope of eternal life?

If not why do you have worry over breaking your fellowship with God?

Openly Curious

Hello Openly Curious,

I just wanted to tell you to check out my thread about {Leading others to Christ.} A person called to 2thepoint answers the your question the way I would. He talks about (CS) Conditional Security. That is what Butero has and probably you. Sin is what prevents a man from going to heaven because God can not let sin into heaven. That is why Jesus dies on the cross 2000 years ago. It is because of Jesus blood that God doesn't see the believers as sinners anymore. Instead God sees us as righteous and without sin because we came to faith in Jesus Christ. If you came to Jesus through faith and received Him as Lord and Saviour you are saved. You will not go to hell. Now that saved person just has to live for the purpose that God chose him for. That can only be done by yielding your will to the Holy Spirit. If you disobey the Holy Spirit he will convict you of sin. Then you must confess so that you can move forward in your relationship with God. If you don't confess God won't send you to hell because you have been saved from hell when you received jesus as Lord and Saviour. If you don't confess your sins you will lose your joy. God won't be as real to you. You will still go to heaven because you have been saved when you placed you faith in Jesus, but the sin separates you from a loving father son relationship.

2thepoint also talks about how (CS) believers have trouble in their witness for Christ because of self doubt. The bottom line is it is just a difficult theology. Because those people are never certain of their salvation. As I asked," How can those (CS) believers lead other to Christ. When they are not certain of their salvation. How can they have real joy not being certain that when they die they will be with God in Heaven? I just want a faith that I can be assured of. Don't you?

I hope that I was able to help.

Your brother in Christ,

Kevin

No, Kevin what I have is the hope of the gospel as for what "butero" has he can speak out for his own self.

God Bless

Openly Curious

Edited March 22, 2006 by Openly Curious

[Openly Curious]

If one allows sin to be between them and God their sin condemns them if they should slip out of this world.

If suicide is wrong it is sin. If one is overtaken (taken captive) by a fault which is the sin or wrong they did. In this case we are talking about the sin of suicide. Which you are saying it is a wrong thing to do. Then if it is in fact a wrong thing to do then to him that knoweth to do good and doeth it not to him it is sin.

A christian who knowingly knows and I think all would agree or at least I think so accepts it as being terrible and wrong. Even those who are struggling with these types of tendency realize and know it is not right even looking at it as a means of escape they know it is wrong. And if a christian is overtaken in this fault (sin)and commits this terrible wrong and dies then their sin is what condemns them "not me" until they get restored back to God. That is the tragedy of it all the believer gets stuck within a place if they do suceed then restoration back to God can't happen. The door is shut they leave this world in broken fellowship. That is plain speech I have used here.

OC

Sorry, but your "plain speech" does not pan out. I asked you a simple question two posts back and you still have yet to answer it clearly. In my last posting I even made it a simple yes or no question, and yet you still refused to answer. This tells me that either you refuse to take a stand on an issue that you are not completely sure about, or you're just plain being evasive.

Since you apparently believe that if a person dies with a single remaining sin he will suffer eternal perdition, and since this logically implies that there is a second unforgivable sin in the Bible - suicide - now please prove your argument with Scripture. What specific verse or verses are there in the Bible that calls suicide a sin, and where specifically does it state that this sin is unforgivable.

Hello,

It is you saying that is a second unforgiveable sin it is not I.

Murder can be forgiven, the wrong doing of committing suicide which is intentional in most cases not all and for the record I am not at all referring to those who have mental illnesses in which their minds do not work properly, but these can be forgiven, lying can be forgiven, adultery can be forgiven, fornication can be forgiven, unforgiveness can be forgiven,

every sin that I can think of or you or anyone else can think of "Can" be forgiven.

Sin becomes a sin the moment that you carry out the act of it. If you don't carry the wrong doing out then you are righteous still. But with any sin that a man or woman carries out to the point of commiting it then they have sin in their life from that very point just like it was in the garden of Eden immediately their eyes were open to the evil and they new they were naked and death passed upon all. Just that quick. If you carry out wrong doing then you sin. Again not all suicide cases are mental illnesses. I've know people who had tragedies come in their lives and thought suicide was their answer because of the things they were having to live with as a result of the tragedies that came in their life. Well in my "Stand" it is not the answer for it is "wrong" it is a "sin" it is a "shame" it is "ugly" it is "dark and it is "condemning" in the sight of my God.

Why because it is God who gives us our lives and it is only "His" right to take it away from us when He so desires. This is the course God has so ordained for mankind we live and then we die. He giveth us life so our lives are His. When you tamper with His life in you you are taking matters into your own hands. God does not want that from a Christian he wants the exact opposite. Tampering with God's life is no different from tampering with the life in the womb. That Is My Stand.

The tragedy and deception is just as the life in the womb get snuffed out the little baby is dead never to enjoy the life God created for them to have. So it is with those who choose to murder their selves in order to escape their circumstances snuffing out the life God gave unto them. It is not that persons right to do so be it christians or non-believers.

For they have their own blood on their hands when they shall stand in His presence.

That is my stand Against It.

God Bless

Openly Curious

So now you're saying that you don't know?

I don't know what? What are you referring that I don't know now what I didn't no then?

As long as their is breath in the body a person has hope of forgiveness of any sins in which they commit "any sins"

Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is not in the group of "forgiveable" sins so the topic of "Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit doesn't even apply to "forgiveable" sins. It is you among others who are confused and lumping the two together not I.

As long as their is breath in the body a person has the hope of forgiveness of "Any" sins they commit including the wrong "sin" of suicide. For suicide is a "Forgiveable" transgression.

One does not need grace or be forgiven if they have done no wrong as of yet. One only needs more grace for the wrongs they commit in the present or future tense which are not our past sins. For we have already recieved God's grace for those sins and they are under the blood. We didn't need to be forgiven for what we had not yet done. That's why God in this same way will give us more grace if we commit sin in times of weaknesses, struggles, and trials.

Openly Curious

[Openly Curious]

nebula

What I am trying to say is that someone in such bondage as to want to kill themselves, to say, "If you kill yourself you will go to Hell," you are just putting more bondage on them.

OC

The term you used was more "bondage" on them. Are you actually implying here to us that the person was already in "bondage" before they sought help. What bible difinition do you give to the word "bondage"?

I know I sure was in bondage! (Self-hatred, insecurity, hopelessness, rejection, fear - did I mention I was demonically tormented, too?)

What reason(s) do you believe there are for people wanting to kill themselves? How can it not be some form of bondage?

I fail to see why this is an arguable point.

nebula

And you are leaving them in their desperate state.

If you want to save someone, you need to go after the roots of the problem.

OC

What would you say is the root of the problem of "bondage"? Is there one?

It can be different for different people.

Depression has physical, soulical (mental, emotional) and spiritual roots - which is most predominant depends on the person.

Why do you think people want to kill themselves - for the "attention"?

nebula

Part of that can be getting their focus off of themselves.

OC

How would you suggest one going about doing that?

I say this because that's how I found the strength to carry on - I didn't want to hurt God.

In the movie It's A Wonderful Life, Clarence used this method to reach George.

Love is powerful. If someone in a suicidal state can love someone else more than they hate themselves, that love will strengthen them.

nebula

For years - all through high school and college and my 20's - I thought my struggles were unique and that all I had to do was push down th e bad feelings and try to focus on things that will lift my spirits.

OC

If someone gives biblical advice for you to take your thoughts captive and think on things that are good lovely and a just report that is Godly advice from God's word. That is not wrong of another christian to tell you. Even though you may have medical conditions that they are unaware of at the time.

You see, that's the problem - I looked at my situation the way you are describing it here. Yet the struggle never ended.

I found out I was trying to cut off branches (symptoms) rather than killing the roots. I thought the symptoms were the problem. But when I found out about chronic depression, it was then that I realized the issues were merely symptoms of the core issues. So, instead of focusing on merely "feeling better" and all that, I had to deal with the cause.

For example, again, how do I be a servant without being a doormat? How do I assert myself without being a jerk? To me it seemed like I was either a doormat or a jerk, so I chose being a doormat so as not to be a jerk. But being a doormat left me feeling used and abused and self-depricated and worthless. But becoming a jerk left me feeling horrible as well.

So, to "fix" my problem by working on my feelings wasn't dealing with the issue - my feelings were symptoms, not the problem.

nebula

But when hard times hit - flop!

It was an endless cycle I couldn't get out of.

Once I finally discovered that I had a chronic depression problem, I was able to refocus my method of attack. My problem wasn't emotions - it was whole mindset.

OC

So keeping your focus right was your answer. Well did God change any of those deep and dark emotions that is associated with this type thing. I mean did your joy increase, was you a little more happier, smile more, or did nothing emotionally change with in the refocusing attack plan of yours.

Think of it this way - I have hypoglycemia (low blood sugar). The way to deal with hypoglycemia is not to continuously ingest sugar to keep the level up. You actually have to avoid sugar (unless your sugar level is crashing and you need a boost). The way to deal with hypoglycemia is to regulate your eating, balance out the carbs with adequate protein, and don't skip meals and methods like that.

The same is with chronic depression - it isn't about how many times I smile a day - it's about emotional balance. I'm not saying it's bad to have emotional highs now and then. I'm saying that trying to maintain an emotional "high" is not the answer. The idea is to bring your emotions to a healthy baseline - like with the sugar level - and learning to maintain that baseline and being able to return to that baseline when circumstances or whatever come in that make it low again.

So, overall, I am feeling better. I am developing confidence. My life is less of a fog. I'm still dealing with how to overcome "being a victim" and, as I said before, how to appropriately deal with anger so that it is constructive and not destructive (I was raised in an anger-destructive environment, so I wasn't taught this - and it's rather difficult finding someone to teach me how to deal with this properly, so I'm kind-of having to learn as I go, and hope I'm making the right choices ).

How did you change your whole mindset? What methods would you counsel others in changing their whole mindset and getting proper focus?

Whew! I had to read several books and listen to tapes and go through counseling programs. . .

The answer to your question is not one that can be done in a simple post.

Maybe if you check out that book Ruck recommended...?

nebula

God has on more than one time healed some major depressive episodes I had - and it came more often through the "laying on of hands" and prayers with prophesying that broke the episode. (And that is how you get someone to stop wanting to kill themselves!!!)

OC

So it was through praying, prophesying, and the laying on of hands that healed several of these episodes you had. And that is how you get people to not commit suicide. Would this be the prescribed course in your counsel to others. I mean how did this get to the "root" of the problem.

Well, since it seems from your above comments that you don't believe spiritual bondage is behind someone wanting to end their life, it would be hard to explain this to you.

A person wanting to end their life needs love, not theology. The person needs to feel the presence of God, not be told how bad a sinner he is.

nebula

But the chronic depression part - He is making me walk out of step by step. And it makes sense, because I have layers to deal with, new ways of dealing with problems to figure out (like anger), and stuff like that.

That is what I'm trying to convey.

OC

In finding new ways of dealing with your problems including the emotion of anger. Does the instructions given in the bible to all believers help you at all I mean do scriptures not help in showing you ways to deal with things. And if so can you give me an example how scripture helps you cope with chronic depression. What would be your advice to others pertaining to the help that is found in scriptures.

There's no "cookie-cutter" answer to this.

For instance, with anger, yes there are many Scriptures that address anger, but how to put principle into practice isn't so clear cut. When you have to confront someone - what specific words do you use? The Bible doesn't contain a script - I wish it did!

I'm not devaluing the Bible; I'm just saying you can't take the "Take two Scriptures and call me in the morning," approach.

You need to be guided by the Spirit to know what each person needs - for what works for me may not be what works for someone else. That's why counseling needs to be under the Spirit's direction. You need to ask the Lord to intervene and show you what the specific bondage is afflicting the person, which Scriptures attack the heart of the person's struggle, and how to walk with the person through it.

Does that make sense?

Thank you nebula, and I was not trying to argue any point with you in asking these questions from you we already discovered our differences already as I had to clean my face. I asked these questions of you because I wanted to know of the hope that is within your gospel and how it helps you and how it can help others as I was told I didn't get it. So I'm trying to get "it" is all.

God bless

Openly Curious

Edited March 22, 2006 by Openly Curious

[Ovedya]

If one allows sin to be between them and God their sin condemns them if they should slip out of this world.

If suicide is wrong it is sin. If one is overtaken (taken captive) by a fault which is the sin or wrong they did. In this case we are talking about the sin of suicide. Which you are saying it is a wrong thing to do. Then if it is in fact a wrong thing to do then to him that knoweth to do good and doeth it not to him it is sin.

A christian who knowingly knows and I think all would agree or at least I think so accepts it as being terrible and wrong. Even those who are struggling with these types of tendency realize and know it is not right even looking at it as a means of escape they know it is wrong. And if a christian is overtaken in this fault (sin)and commits this terrible wrong and dies then their sin is what condemns them "not me" until they get restored back to God. That is the tragedy of it all the believer gets stuck within a place if they do suceed then restoration back to God can't happen. The door is shut they leave this world in broken fellowship. That is plain speech I have used here.

OC

Sorry, but your "plain speech" does not pan out. I asked you a simple question two posts back and you still have yet to answer it clearly. In my last posting I even made it a simple yes or no question, and yet you still refused to answer. This tells me that either you refuse to take a stand on an issue that you are not completely sure about, or you're just plain being evasive.

Since you apparently believe that if a person dies with a single remaining sin he will suffer eternal perdition, and since this logically implies that there is a second unforgivable sin in the Bible - suicide - now please prove your argument with Scripture. What specific verse or verses are there in the Bible that calls suicide a sin, and where specifically does it state that this sin is unforgivable.

Hello,

It is you saying that is a second unforgiveable sin it is not I.

Murder can be forgiven, the wrong doing of committing suicide which is intentional in most cases not all and for the record I am not at all referring to those who have mental illnesses in which their minds do not work properly, but these can be forgiven, lying can be forgiven, adultery can be forgiven, fornication can be forgiven, unforgiveness can be forgiven,

every sin that I can think of or you or anyone else can think of "Can" be forgiven.

Sin becomes a sin the moment that you carry out the act of it. If you don't carry the wrong doing out then you are righteous still. But with any sin that a man or woman carries out to the point of commiting it then they have sin in their life from that very point just like it was in the garden of Eden immediately their eyes were open to the evil and they new they were naked and death passed upon all. Just that quick. If you carry out wrong doing then you sin. Again not all suicide cases are mental illnesses. I've know people who had tragedies come in their lives and thought suicide was their answer because of the things they were having to live with as a result of the tragedies that came in their life. Well in my "Stand" it is not the answer for it is "wrong" it is a "sin" it is a "shame" it is "ugly" it is "dark and it is "condemning" in the sight of my God.

Why because it is God who gives us our lives and it is only "His" right to take it away from us when He so desires. This is the course God has so ordained for mankind we live and then we die. He giveth us life so our lives are His. When you tamper with His life in you you are taking matters into your own hands. God does not want that from a Christian he wants the exact opposite. Tampering with God's life is no different from tampering with the life in the womb. That Is My Stand.

The tragedy and deception is just as the life in the womb get snuffed out the little baby is dead never to enjoy the life God created for them to have. So it is with those who choose to murder their selves in order to escape their circumstances snuffing out the life God gave unto them. It is not that persons right to do so be it christians or non-believers.

For they have their own blood on their hands when they shall stand in His presence.

That is my stand Against It.

God Bless

Openly Curious

So now you're saying that you don't know?

I don't know what? What are you referring that I don't know now what I didn't no then?

As long as their is breath in the body a person has hope of forgiveness of any sins in which they commit "any sins"

Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is not in the group of "forgiveable" sins so the topic of "Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit doesn't even apply to "forgiveable" sins. It is you among others who are confused and lumping the two together not I.

As long as their is breath in the body a person has the hope of forgiveness of "Any" sins they commit including the wrong "sin" of suicide. For suicide is a "Forgiveable" transgression.

One does not need grace or be forgiven if they have done no wrong as of yet. One only needs more grace for the wrongs they commit in the present or future tense which are not our past sins. For we have already recieved God's grace for those sins and they are under the blood. We didn't need to be forgiven for what we had not yet done. That's why God in this same way will give us more grace if we commit sin in times of weaknesses, struggles, and trials.

Openly Curious

Therefore : No breath, no grace, no forgiveness. Yes or no?

[Openly Curious]

If one allows sin to be between them and God their sin condemns them if they should slip out of this world.

If suicide is wrong it is sin. If one is overtaken (taken captive) by a fault which is the sin or wrong they did. In this case we are talking about the sin of suicide. Which you are saying it is a wrong thing to do. Then if it is in fact a wrong thing to do then to him that knoweth to do good and doeth it not to him it is sin.

A christian who knowingly knows and I think all would agree or at least I think so accepts it as being terrible and wrong. Even those who are struggling with these types of tendency realize and know it is not right even looking at it as a means of escape they know it is wrong. And if a christian is overtaken in this fault (sin)and commits this terrible wrong and dies then their sin is what condemns them "not me" until they get restored back to God. That is the tragedy of it all the believer gets stuck within a place if they do suceed then restoration back to God can't happen. The door is shut they leave this world in broken fellowship. That is plain speech I have used here.

OC

Sorry, but your "plain speech" does not pan out. I asked you a simple question two posts back and you still have yet to answer it clearly. In my last posting I even made it a simple yes or no question, and yet you still refused to answer. This tells me that either you refuse to take a stand on an issue that you are not completely sure about, or you're just plain being evasive.

Since you apparently believe that if a person dies with a single remaining sin he will suffer eternal perdition, and since this logically implies that there is a second unforgivable sin in the Bible - suicide - now please prove your argument with Scripture. What specific verse or verses are there in the Bible that calls suicide a sin, and where specifically does it state that this sin is unforgivable.

Hello,

It is you saying that is a second unforgiveable sin it is not I.

Murder can be forgiven, the wrong doing of committing suicide which is intentional in most cases not all and for the record I am not at all referring to those who have mental illnesses in which their minds do not work properly, but these can be forgiven, lying can be forgiven, adultery can be forgiven, fornication can be forgiven, unforgiveness can be forgiven,

every sin that I can think of or you or anyone else can think of "Can" be forgiven.

Sin becomes a sin the moment that you carry out the act of it. If you don't carry the wrong doing out then you are righteous still. But with any sin that a man or woman carries out to the point of commiting it then they have sin in their life from that very point just like it was in the garden of Eden immediately their eyes were open to the evil and they new they were naked and death passed upon all. Just that quick. If you carry out wrong doing then you sin. Again not all suicide cases are mental illnesses. I've know people who had tragedies come in their lives and thought suicide was their answer because of the things they were having to live with as a result of the tragedies that came in their life. Well in my "Stand" it is not the answer for it is "wrong" it is a "sin" it is a "shame" it is "ugly" it is "dark and it is "condemning" in the sight of my God.

Why because it is God who gives us our lives and it is only "His" right to take it away from us when He so desires. This is the course God has so ordained for mankind we live and then we die. He giveth us life so our lives are His. When you tamper with His life in you you are taking matters into your own hands. God does not want that from a Christian he wants the exact opposite. Tampering with God's life is no different from tampering with the life in the womb. That Is My Stand.

The tragedy and deception is just as the life in the womb get snuffed out the little baby is dead never to enjoy the life God created for them to have. So it is with those who choose to murder their selves in order to escape their circumstances snuffing out the life God gave unto them. It is not that persons right to do so be it christians or non-believers.

For they have their own blood on their hands when they shall stand in His presence.

That is my stand Against It.

God Bless

Openly Curious

So now you're saying that you don't know?

Edited March 22, 2006 by Openly Curious

[Guest NewPilgrim]

OC, I've been reading your replies and youve spent a great deal of time and energy over the last 6 pages saying nothing at all, mostly through vain repetitions of the same vague waffle.

Despite several requests, since page 2, you STILL havent provided your claimed "clear scipture" that states an unconfessed sin will condemn you. So for the record, a waffle-free reply please to the following request:

PLEASE state scriptures that clearly show that unconfessed sins will condemn a believing follower of Christ.

The only replies you have hinted at so far are far more akin to your skewed belief in conditional salvation.

Despite your protestations, your statements about suicide are quite clear that it is an unforgivable sin.

Your logic says that a sin is only forgiven if we repent and confess it to God. If a man shoots himself in the head, he has no time or ability to repent and confess, therefore God cannot/will not forgive him, which makes this an unforgivable sin.

You know full well that Blaspheming the Holy Spirit is the only unforgivable sin. But you say that suicide is unforgivable too, you say suicide will send you right to hell, unless is a slow lingering one that you repent of while youre dying. Perhaps I should be more specific and say that YOU believe that INSTANT suicide is an unforgivable sin, but again, in case you missed it, the only unforgivable sin is Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Dont bother trying to reconcile your beliefs on suicide with this clear scriptural statement, because you never will be able to. You will never reconcile your belief on suicide until you change your view of it.

Fom what I can gather, you would council the suicidal by telling them that theyre relationship with God is rubbish, theyre not faithful enough, they should turn to him for a quick fix, but he isnt able to maintain or uphold them anyway, they have to do that themselves and they will have no assurances until they actually DO die and only then will they trully find out if they are saved. Sounds to me like theyd be better off slitting their wrists, saying theyre sorry and then waiting to die. No security in a life that offers no comforts, just say youre sorry and get it over with, hopefully you might just get in the front door....

You should ty actually listening to and understanding people who are or have been suicidal. Simply the fact that you may have harboured suicidal thoughts or tendancies doesnt qualify you to tell others how to come out of it. You seem to fail to recognise that we are all individuals with different thoughts, feelings and aspirations. For goodness sake, you even read Nebulas testimony and then took credit for HIS WISDOM!! How rude and ignorant and blatant can you be.

If you feel that all of this sounds like a harsh rebuke, then prick up your ears and take note because it is. In this issue at least you have shown little regard for the sensibilities of others, stuck your fingers in your ears and shouted your opinions over the top of them "la-la-laaaa!"

I'm sorry my brother, but you need to wake up and get with the program. Please dont ever try to council someone who feels suicidal until you first get a serious change of attitude and a far better insight. A persons life, and from your viewpoint their eternal security, is at stake and from what I've heard, you are only likely to push them over the edge.

I'm sorry to be so hard on you, but really, this is a VERY VERY serious and sensitive issue and you have shown little sensitivity toward it.

For the record, since you alluded to the idea that I thought suicide is ok, I dont think its ok at all. It is selfish, harmful and destructive to self and to others, but there are ways and means of delivering that message so as not to push in the wrong direction. I have every sympathy for anyone who is in such a fragile state of mind and while I hold to the statement just made, I nevertheless urge such a one to consider the flip-side that the reason it is so, is because people genuinely do love you and your departing would break their hearts in despair, least not that of our Lord and saviour. He knows your suffering, but he wants you to live, heal and share your wisdom with others and spread his love through your experiences.