Suicide

[Guest NewPilgrim]

Yeah, I made that point earlier. It was the same with Job:

Job 7:

11 "Therefore I will not restrain my mouth;

I will speak in the anguish of my spirit;

I will complain in the bitterness of my soul.

12 Am I a sea, or a sea serpent,

That You set a guard over me?

13 When I say, 'My bed will comfort me,

My couch will ease my complaint,'

14 Then You scare me with dreams

And terrify me with visions,

15 So that my soul chooses strangling

And death rather than *my body.

16 I loathe my life;

I would not live forever.

Let me alone,

For my days are but a breath.

[Openly Curious]

If one allows sin to be between them and God their sin condemns them if they should slip out of this world.

If suicide is wrong it is sin. If one is overtaken (taken captive) by a fault which is the sin or wrong they did. In this case we are talking about the sin of suicide. Which you are saying it is a wrong thing to do. Then if it is in fact a wrong thing to do then to him that knoweth to do good and doeth it not to him it is sin.

A christian who knowingly knows and I think all would agree or at least I think so accepts it as being terrible and wrong. Even those who are struggling with these types of tendency realize and know it is not right even looking at it as a means of escape they know it is wrong. And if a christian is overtaken in this fault (sin)and commits this terrible wrong and dies then their sin is what condemns them "not me" until they get restored back to God. That is the tragedy of it all the believer gets stuck within a place if they do suceed then restoration back to God can't happen. The door is shut they leave this world in broken fellowship. That is plain speech I have used here.

OC

Sorry, but your "plain speech" does not pan out. I asked you a simple question two posts back and you still have yet to answer it clearly. In my last posting I even made it a simple yes or no question, and yet you still refused to answer. This tells me that either you refuse to take a stand on an issue that you are not completely sure about, or you're just plain being evasive.

Since you apparently believe that if a person dies with a single remaining sin he will suffer eternal perdition, and since this logically implies that there is a second unforgivable sin in the Bible - suicide - now please prove your argument with Scripture. What specific verse or verses are there in the Bible that calls suicide a sin, and where specifically does it state that this sin is unforgivable.

Hello,

It is you saying that is a second unforgiveable sin it is not I.

Murder can be forgiven, the wrong doing of committing suicide which is intentional in most cases not all and for the record I am not at all referring to those who have mental illnesses in which their minds do not work properly, but these can be forgiven, lying can be forgiven, adultery can be forgiven, fornication can be forgiven, unforgiveness can be forgiven,

every sin that I can think of or you or anyone else can think of "Can" be forgiven.

Sin becomes a sin the moment that you carry out the act of it. If you don't carry the wrong doing out then you are righteous still. But with any sin that a man or woman carries out to the point of commiting it then they have sin in their life from that very point just like it was in the garden of Eden immediately their eyes were open to the evil and they new they were naked and death passed upon all. Just that quick. If you carry out wrong doing then you sin. Again not all suicide cases are mental illnesses. I've know people who had tragedies come in their lives and thought suicide was their answer because of the things they were having to live with as a result of the tragedies that came in their life. Well in my "Stand" it is not the answer for it is "wrong" it is a "sin" it is a "shame" it is "ugly" it is "dark and it is "condemning" in the sight of my God.

Why because it is God who gives us our lives and it is only "His" right to take it away from us when He so desires. This is the course God has so ordained for mankind we live and then we die. He giveth us life so our lives are His. When you tamper with His life in you you are taking matters into your own hands. God does not want that from a Christian he wants the exact opposite. Tampering with God's life is no different from tampering with the life in the womb. That Is My Stand.

The tragedy and deception is just as the life in the womb get snuffed out the little baby is dead never to enjoy the life God created for them to have. So it is with those who choose to murder their selves in order to escape their circumstances snuffing out the life God gave unto them. It is not that persons right to do so be it christians or non-believers.

For they have their own blood on their hands when they shall stand in His presence.

That is my stand Against It.

God Bless

Openly Curious

So now you're saying that you don't know?

I don't know what? What are you referring that I don't know now what I didn't no then?

As long as their is breath in the body a person has hope of forgiveness of any sins in which they commit "any sins"

Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is not in the group of "forgiveable" sins so the topic of "Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit doesn't even apply to "forgiveable" sins. It is you among others who are confused and lumping the two together not I.

As long as their is breath in the body a person has the hope of forgiveness of "Any" sins they commit including the wrong "sin" of suicide. For suicide is a "Forgiveable" transgression.

One does not need grace or be forgiven if they have done no wrong as of yet. One only needs more grace for the wrongs they commit in the present or future tense which are not our past sins. For we have already recieved God's grace for those sins and they are under the blood. We didn't need to be forgiven for what we had not yet done. That's why God in this same way will give us more grace if we commit sin in times of weaknesses, struggles, and trials.

Openly Curious

Therefore : No breath, no grace, no forgiveness. Yes or no?

No breath, no grace, no forgiveness is what I have said. For the simple that is a Yes

As we don't have a right to tamper with the life God has so given to us.

For it is not our place to take our own life and put it into our own hands.

It is no different that snuffing a life in the womb out. If abortion is wrong then aborting your own life is equally as wrong and offensive within the mind of God. You do not have a right to tamper with Life.

God Bless

Openly Curious

So then, if no breath, no grace, no forgiveness, then suicide=no forgiveness. Hence, unforgivable. Hence, two unforgivable sins.

Also, by implication, grace is limited and forgiveness is conditional.

Hello Ovedya,

No, Commit suicide--death--no breath--no forgiveness--no grace--no hope--die in their sins--condemned.

I have seen others within this thread bring up the subject of "Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit" so I am going to address this. Because I have no idea where the subject of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit has any bearing on the subject of a believer commiting suicide. Unless people have doctrinal beliefs surrounding this issue of "blasphemy of the Holy Spirit" linking it the the subject of a believer "commiting the actual act of suicide".

But in the things you are suggesting to me Ovedya well I see a thin line myself and will address it. You are actually suggesting to me that every one who has died "prior" to recieving Christ Jesus as Lord and Savior by faith all died of unforgiveable sins. Now if I say what you want me to say it would be wrong in this regards. And I do not share that view it is you who are suggesting this. That is why I'm pointing this out and will not accept the theology you want me to embrace.

In the same way our "past" sins condemned us if we died before confession it was to late--Unforgiveable. It is no different in regards to any "present" or "future" sins we may commit for they also have to come under the blood. Every sin is "Forgiveable" "only" if one asks God will most gracious pour out to them the measure of grace they are in need of.

In that way all sins are "Forgiveable" but not everyone will come receive the forgiveness and grace they are in need of and they will die in their sins in the same way that our past sins condemned us. In this way I say yes there are sins that go unconfessed that to the person who commited them will be unforgiven. Not within the manner in which you have put it.

All sins can be forgiven. Sin--confess by faith--receive more grace--peace with the Maker-- no more condemnation.

In the case of "Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit" -- if you do it--you are condemned--no forgiveness--no grace--eternal damnation.

So there is a difference in the things you imply. I hope I have clarified this difference.

And by implications I see it as --Grace Is Limited--we can only receive the grace of God in "measure"as he gives it into our lives as we need it.---Forgiveness is limitless--for one can recieve it any time they are in need of it but they got to come to God to receive it--whosoever will let him come--the Spirit of God don't stop whooing us just because we confessed one day at an alter. But He Keeps Ever calling us to His side so that we will make it home one day to be with Him without spot or wrinkles.

1Thessalonians 5:23--"And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ"

The apostle Paul was addressing the believers not the unbelievers in this regards. We must keep our spirits clean, which are our emotions which sin can effect them like having anger, resentment, jealousy, bitterness towards others we must not let these sins come into our spirits to dwell if we do our spirits are unclean we spew out hatred and other things that these types of sins bring into our lives and we need to repent of these things so the fruit of the Spirit will be present and our speech will be seasoned with salt. that is how you are to preserve your spirit blameless in his sight get sin out let Jesus shine

Our soul is to be preserved blameless being our will the part of us that makes decisions our intellect. Our wills can be hindered if sin is in our lives in general as it takes our right judgement away from us to make the proper decision as we are to live a life pleasing in the sight of God according to His word. One cannot do that if they have sin in their life. So if one wants to have good sound and right judgement (which is a gift of God) and want the blessings of God to come into their lives then keep sin out and your "free will" will choose the right over the wrong and be conquered. As you will in this way preserve your soul blameless as God will grant forgiveness.

Our bodies are to be preserved blameless we are not to take our bodies and give them over to sins we are not to commit adultery, we are not to be drunkards, we are not to take any part of our bodies and give it over unto sin if you do then you need to repent and stop doing it. You are in this way told to preserve you body blameless in the sight of God.

In all three parts of our being sin must go and be put under the blood. All three areas must be kept clean and it is the believers responsibility to see to it that they do. As God has done his work already and provided us the help the forgiveness and grace we need to get the job done. But we got to do it all the days of our lives.

And this is what it means to be in Christ

Blessings in Christ

Openly Curious

[Openly Curious]

if the person be a christian then i would debate that they would still go to heaven as they were saved. but i am sure many will disagree

Hello Hannah,

I like your name and well I am one of those who disagree with your opinion. First because murder is a sin and I'm sure every Christian would accept it as being a sin as willsmon said in her post "Thou shalt not murder" so this is a commandment and law of God that carries penalties or has consequences if you break it.

We are told in 1 John that when we sin we have an advocate (lawyer) with the Father and if we are faithful to confess our sins then He is faithful and just to forgive us our tresspasses (sins).

Well the advocate is Jesus Christ who interceeds between us and the Father as Jesus shed his blood on the cross so that we can obtain his mercy in times of need. And if we will faithfully come to God and confess our faults and failures which are our transgressions against the commands and laws of God. Then if we will do that it tell us that God will be faithful and just to forgive us of our tresspasses. Because of the blood of his only begotten son that was shed for the atonement of those sins.

Now since that is the prescribe course for our sins, faults, failures, tresspasses, wickedness or whatever you want to call our wrong doings against the will of God we have to abide by that prescribed course if we want to be forgiven when we mess up and blow it.

Now if a person kills themselves they are gone there is no time left for them to be faithful and go to God and repent of their sin of murder for it is over for good in that persons life when they die.

One might say well I'll repent before I kill myself then I'll be forgiven and alright with God and everything will be all better for me. But that is only a lie the devil holds out for them to embrace because if they truly repented then they wouldn't willfully and knowing break the commandment of God that is not true repentance it's a Lie.

God Bless Hannah

Openly Curious

In my opinion, suicide cannot logically be called a sin. Sin is not sin until the act has been completed. Therefore, if suicide is a sin, it has to join Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit and become the second unforgiveable sin since to be a "suicide", the person has to die and once the act is carried out, the person dies quickly without a chance of reversing the action.

Scripture says that there is only ONE unforgiveable sin - Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (See Mt 12:31)

Suicide is a tragic result of severe mental illness. It is not a sin to die of lung cancer or liver disease or leukemia or any other physical illness. How, then, can it be a sin to die of a mental illness?

SLE

And it is an opinion in which I do not share with you.

OC

Somehow I think that you missed the whole point. You don't have to directly state that suicide is, "The second unforgivable sin." The arguments you made logically point in that direction.

okay I see so why don't we all just say that all committed acts of sins are unforgiveable. Well I cannot say that because it is incorrect. It was others who brought this ideology to this thread. I do not have or hold that view. If you are interested I addressed this very thing in post #130 while talking to Ovedya you should read it. It is not I that is confused or missed the point. I do not share in your opinion.

Openly Curious

[Kabowd]

Well now I think I've figured out that this topic has turned into a doctrinal debate not over suicide but over what one is calling eternal security verses those who have a different view.

Well I didn't understand that such a thing existed I knew people had different views of the bible but did not understand these two groups actually fight against one another.

I had to even ask LadyC. within this thread what did OSAS stand for because I did not know.

I am a student of the bible and my views have been formed from the bible I am not schooled in denominational differences.

And as I am becoming aware of these vary differences I can see alot of people ain't studying their bibles. But since I have now realized this denomination doctrine teaching I will ask of those to supply me with scriptures to back up their beliefs for I have been very gracious within this thread sharing scriptures with you but now I ask this of all those who do not share with my biblical views to teach and share their scriptures with me that we may discuss them. I mean you ought to be able to back up what you believe in not just me.

God Bless

Openly Curious

Well, I just joined this discussion so forgive me if I state something that has already been said. I was curious to read the above post and discover that you had never even heard of such a widely known, centuries old debate like the issue of eternal security. I can assure you that some of the greatest minds in the history of Christianity have found themselves on either side of this debate. It isn't as simple as accusing someone with a differing view of not studying the Word. Since you have somewhat implied you've done tremendous study of the Scriptures, may I ask if you've acquired your knowledge and wisdom via personal study? Or have you had professional training? Do you value extra-biblical sources of education such as commentaries and things of that sort? Have you studied Greek and Hebrew?

I'm not trying to be offensive, I'm honestly asking so that I can gain a better understanding of where you're coming from. You say that you aren't "schooled in denominational doctrine or teaching", and I'm not sure what that means. Are you not affiliated with any particular denomination? What doctrine do you adhere to?

Thanks

[nebula]

In several of my counseling sessions, I was asked if I had any unforgiveness in my heart.

I said, "Not that I can think of."

The person said, "Well, let's ask the Lord about it." So we asked the Lord to uncover any unforgiveness I had.

The next thing I know, names and faces popped up - and I realized . . . yeah, I did harbor bitterness or other not-so-pleasant feelings about them. I was even mad at a former roommate for never having written bqack to me!

If I had died before I repented of the unforgiveness I had in my heart for all these people, would I have gone to Hell?

How many Christians are there, like me, harboring unforgiveness that don't realize it's there - but it is - or who are still struggling with forgiving someone who severely hurt them - if they die before repenting, will they all go to Hell?

[Kabowd]

In several of my counseling sessions, I was asked if I had any unforgiveness in my heart.

I said, "Not that I can think of."

The person said, "Well, let's ask the Lord about it." So we asked the Lord to uncover any unforgiveness I had.

The next thing I know, names and faces popped up - and I realized . . . yeah, I did harbor bitterness or other not-so-pleasant feelings about them. I was even mad at a former roommate for never having written bqack to me!

If I had died before I repented of the unforgiveness I had in my heart for all these people, would I have gone to Hell?

How many Christians are there, like me, harboring unforgiveness that don't realize it's there - but it is - or who are still struggling with forgiving someone who severely hurt them - if they die before repenting, will they all go to Hell?

[nebula]

Fom what I can gather, you would council the suicidal by telling them that theyre relationship with God is rubbish, theyre not faithful enough, they should turn to him for a quick fix, but he isnt able to maintain or uphold them anyway, they have to do that themselves and they will have no assurances until they actually DO die and only then will they trully find out if they are saved. Sounds to me like theyd be better off slitting their wrists, saying theyre sorry and then waiting to die. No security in a life that offers no comforts, just say youre sorry and get it over with, hopefully you might just get in the front door....

[Openly Curious]

OC, I've been reading your replies and youve spent a great deal of time and energy over the last 6 pages saying nothing at all, mostly through vain repetitions of the same vague waffle.

Despite several requests, since page 2, you STILL havent provided your claimed "clear scipture" that states an unconfessed sin will condemn you. So for the record, a waffle-free reply please to the following request:

PLEASE state scriptures that clearly show that unconfessed sins will condemn a believing follower of Christ.

Openly Curious

1 John 3:18-24 & John 15:1-17

NewPigrim

The only replies you have hinted at so far are far more akin to your skewed belief in conditional salvation.

Despite your protestations, your statements about suicide are quite clear that it is an unforgivable sin.

Your logic says that a sin is only forgiven if we repent and confess it to God. If a man shoots himself in the head, he has no time or ability to repent and confess, therefore God cannot/will not forgive him, which makes this an unforgivable sin.

You know full well that Blaspheming the Holy Spirit is the only unforgivable sin. But you say that suicide is unforgivable too, you say suicide will send you right to hell, unless is a slow lingering one that you repent of while youre dying. Perhaps I should be more specific and say that YOU believe that INSTANT suicide is an unforgivable sin, but again, in case you missed it, the only unforgivable sin is Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Dont bother trying to reconcile your beliefs on suicide with this clear scriptural statement, because you never will be able to. You will never reconcile your belief on suicide until you change your view of it.

Openly Curious,

I'm seeing I do not fit into either of these two views because I see error in the OSAS (thanks LadyC.) and error within what others are saying within this thread pertaining to what you say I have condition salvation.

Read post #130

No I am not saying that suicide is not unforgiveable but it is unconfessed. You are saying that. It is not I that has any problem in my relationship that needs to be reconciled within in these two for I have peace. It is you who are linking those two together and not I.

New Pigrim

Fom what I can gather, you would council the suicidal by telling them that theyre relationship with God is rubbish, theyre not faithful enough, they should turn to him for a quick fix, but he isnt able to maintain or uphold them anyway, they have to do that themselves and they will have no assurances until they actually DO die and only then will they trully find out if they are saved. Sounds to me like theyd be better off slitting their wrists, saying theyre sorry and then waiting to die. No security in a life that offers no comforts, just say youre sorry and get it over with, hopefully you might just get in the front door....

Openly Curious,

No, that is not my council for them as I know that they are in fact not rubbish but precious in God's sight. And it's not about how much one is faithful or not faithful at all. The person needs help and their help is in God and that is the hope of the gospel. It is not about a quick fix at all.

It seems to me in your view of things that is what you got a quick fix one time at an altar one day in your past and don't need God anymore for anything because you got it all right then and there. And I do not hold that view else I couldn't offer any hope to anyone in any problem they may have to experience and go through in their present or future circumstances.

What your advice to the person is that it is A okay to kill yourself because of Jesus go ahead and die. That is what your theology suggests.

Well I have respect unto life so that is not my advice or council.

Where is your scriptures to back up your view.

NewPigrim

You should ty actually listening to and understanding people who are or have been suicidal. Simply the fact that you may have harboured suicidal thoughts or tendancies doesnt qualify you to tell others how to come out of it. You seem to fail to recognise that we are all individuals with different thoughts, feelings and aspirations. For goodness sake, you even read Nebulas testimony and then took credit for HIS WISDOM!! How rude and ignorant and blatant can you be.

If you feel that all of this sounds like a harsh rebuke, then prick up your ears and take note because it is. In this issue at least you have shown little regard for the sensibilities of others, stuck your fingers in your ears and shouted your opinions over the top of them "la-la-laaaa!"

I'm sorry my brother, but you need to wake up and get with the program. Please dont ever try to council someone who feels suicidal until you first get a serious change of attitude and a far better insight. A persons life, and from your viewpoint their eternal security, is at stake and from what I've heard, you are only likely to push them over the edge.

I'm sorry to be so hard on you, but really, this is a VERY VERY serious and sensitive issue and you have shown little sensitivity toward it.

Openly Curious

I have not claimed I was a doctor who helps and works with those whom have mental problems where there minds do not work properly in this area.

I know we are all different and we all have different needs but where do we "ALL" get our needs met. Who is the "Source" for the christians in times of need if it is not the Christ in which I point to.

Again where is your scriptures that says "Christ is not Sufficient" to supply all our need according to his riches in glory.

Where is your scripture that says we got it all at an altar one day.

I understand that when we found Jesus we Truly Do Have It All because of Him but that is not what I'm pointing out here.

But that He will be sufficient for us in our sufferings and trials of life that we are presently in and might have to face in our futures. His grace and mercy is still extended to us is what I'm saying.

And you don't have to apologize for your rebuke I know from firsthand along with rebuke there is good counsel and bad counsel. And just because one flies off the handle it doesn't mean everything is true.

NewPigrim

For the record, since you alluded to the idea that I thought suicide is ok, I dont think its ok at all. It is selfish, harmful and destructive to self and to others, but there are ways and means of delivering that message so as not to push in the wrong direction. I have every sympathy for anyone who is in such a fragile state of mind and while I hold to the statement just made, I nevertheless urge such a one to consider the flip-side that the reason it is so, is because people genuinely do love you and your departing would break their hearts in despair, least not that of our Lord and saviour. He knows your suffering, but he wants you to live, heal and share your wisdom with others and spread his love through your experiences.

[Openly Curious]

Correction: 7 off-topic verses.

I haven't sent you any emails, please dont make false accusations.

I'm holding you to task, that is all. Others have already appealed to you and you have ignored them too.

The issues that you are evading are not new, you have been evading them for several pages and have posted a good half dozen times in ignorance of them or using diversionary tactics.

Pardon me NewPigrim,

It was not e-mail it was in the actual post itself. Pardon my mistake in this regards. And I could careless of your contempt that is between you and God.

Blessings Extended To You

Openly Curious

[Kabowd]

Hello? Am I invisible??