Suicide

[nebula]

Ovedya

I appreciate your humor but I am not asking about the ressurection of the dead nor do I want to get into that can of worms.

Inasmuch as you understand my question in your beliefs a simple yes or no

If I was to commit suicide tonight Would I go to Heaven?

Yes or no

Openly Curious

Psssstt - he did answer the question:

Inasmuch as you understand the question, the answer is yes.

Clear as mud?

Good.

[Openly Curious]

That's what irks me, OC.

You are saying that the man I presented hypothetically would go to Hell. It doesn't matter that he didn't have time to even get over the shock of the news. The point is he had unforgiveness in his heart, therefore off to Hell with you!

Or take another case. A 13 year old girl gives her life to Christ. She has a noticeable change, even so much that her friends notice. She prays and reads the Bible every day. She's attending church and participating in the youth group.

2 months later, some sick man kidnaps her, rapes her, and then kills her. By your theology, if she has not managed to forgive her attacker by then, the Lord will tell her, "I don't care that you were traumatized, I don't care that you were in pain, I don't care that you were scared out of your witts. All I care is that before your heart stopped beating you did not obey my command to forgive. Depart from Me, I never knew you!"

If that is your theology, then I want no part of it!!!!!!!! PHARISEE!

And I agree with what Ovedya said - I am not Heaven's gatekeeper. I cannot say if you killed yourself right now if you would go to Heaven or Hell. I leave that decision to God's hands.

I only know that the Lord gave me a vision that I would not have lost my salvation, but I wouldn't be greeted with, "Well done."

Now, either this was a true vision of what would happen.

Or the Lord was lying to me.

Or it was a deception of Satan - forget the fact that it kept me from killing myself and drew me closer to the Lord.

(As I mentioned before.)

I had a friend who shared how he had given his life to the Lord and was pursuing God, yet somewhere along the way he decided to turn his back on God and lived that way for years. He shared that he knew in his heart during that time that if he died he would have gone to Hell. Yet it was still a long time before he finally re-comitted his life to Christ and had a complete change-around.

So my point in all of this, the reason I came into this debate, was my firm beleif that if you know a Christian who is struggling with suicide, telling him or her that, "If you kill yourself, you are going to Hell," is not the way to save the person. It would not have helped me, I know that for sure! Suicide is a selfish act, and you want to save them by keeping their focus on themselves? Bad counsel! And then what hope do you leave the person with? Bad counsel!

I can't tell you if you would go to Heaven or Hell. I can only say with certainty that even if you do go to Heaven, you will be horribly, horribly regretting your decision and will still spend the rest of eternity living with the consequences of that decision.

ms nebula

I know you are not the gatekeeper but you have put yourself out as the preacher who's doctrine has suggested to me all is under the blood secure and I have the assurance of my salvation as prescribed by you in that relam Stop being evasive

If your beliefs if you are fully persuaded of them

If I commited suicide tonight Would I go to Heaven?

Yes or No

Openly Curious

[nebula]

In the instance of suicide, my point is that since a true born again believer should show a changed lifestyle, and suicide is not the type of action a Christian would be doing, perhaps someone that commits suicide wasn't really saved, but only thought they were?

So, you are saying directly to my face that I am not saved.

I believe in the death of Jesus for my sin and in His resurrection. I have repented of my sin. I have been baptised. I make the effort to restrain myself from "the pleasures of this world" so that I may please God. I have determined to seek His face.

Yet because I have this struggle, you are telling me that all of that is rubbish.

Gre-e-e-e-a-a-t.

[Openly Curious]

NewPilgrim,

I have so stated within my post to you already that I have the assurance of my salvation by faith and I do not care of your belief about you in where you would go. If it is all under the blood as the gospel you have presented to me and are or have been defending is so thus and you have been fully persuade of then stop being evasive and answer with a yes or no

If I was to commit suicide tonight Would I go to Heaven? Yes or No

Openly Curious

If you are a blood washed, spirit regenerated believer in teh Lord Jesus Christ, then the answer is no.

You would sleep, and then you would inherit the kingdom of the God at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

(Oops! have I opened another can of worms? )

Inasmuch as you understand the question, the answer is yes.

Ovedya

I appreciate your humor but I am not asking about the ressurection of the dead nor do I want to get into that can of worms.

Inasmuch as you understand my question in your beliefs a simple yes or no

If I was to commit suicide tonight Would I go to Heaven?

Yes or no

Openly Curious

Clear as mud?

Good.

You still didn't answer my questionabout Samson directly with a yes or no of your own.

Ovedya

When you give me a clear cut yes or no in your beliefs you have presented to me then maybe we can talk about Samson.

Until then I only await one simple reply from you.

If I was to commit suicide tonight Would I go to Heaven

Yes or No

Openly Curious

[Openly Curious]

NewPilgrim,

I have so stated within my post to you already that I have the assurance of my salvation by faith and I do not care of your belief about you in where you would go. If it is all under the blood as the gospel you have presented to me and are or have been defending is so thus and you have been fully persuade of then stop being evasive and answer with a yes or no

If I was to commit suicide tonight Would I go to Heaven? Yes or No

You're clueless arent you? I can't state it any clearer, you can protest to me that you have salvation till the cows come home, but I dont know that anymore than I know if my unborn children will have salvation. Its not my job to judge your salvation state, in fact we're warned against it. I've made my position quite clear that if someone is born again and their life ends in suicide they are no more condemned than the day they were born again, their place in heaven is assured. I've given you plenty of scripture to support such a view and I've repeated it several times so that you can't really miss it. We all will be judged according to our sins and our good works and it will be a terrible day to experience, but we have Gods assurance that it will end in celebration and not condemnation for those of us who have been bought by the blood of Christ and promised to him by the earnest of the Holy Spirit. (of which I'm proud and joyous to claim I am one)

NewPilgrim,

So then in your beliefs and in the gospel you hold out to others yes or no

If I commited suicide tonight Would I go to Heaven?

Yes or No

Openly Curious

[Guest NewPilgrim]

You said the exact same thing I said. You just extended your statement to make it appear your position was different.

Indeed Butero, because it IS different, if only a little, to the description you gave. The inferrence being that we just assume a "christian" who fell away, or "walked away" as I prefer to say, since it is a conscious act (except perhaps in the case of severe mental illness) was not saved in the first place. For my part at least, such an assumption is not made. I simply state that we cannot trully know if such a one was saved or not, and that if they were born again then they will indeed go to be with the Lord after death as 1Cor chapter 5 indicates..."let him be handed over to satan for the destruction of his flesh so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord" As I have said before, to judge the nature of salvation and the sufficiency of Grace and the ability of Yeshua by the actions of men, is dangerous and disrespectful to God.

In regard to your deeper theological question, though we cannot be certain the nature of the foreknowledge which Rom 8:29 speaks of or how it is applied, it is my understanding and belief is that knowing the deepest hidden places of our hearts, God knows exactly who throughout history will have a heart for him and give up their life to him of their own freewill and who of their own freewill has a heart of rejection, then he appoints them likewise to his sovereign purpose. The bible shows that there are those who can be shown great power signs and wonders of God and witness his forgiveness and mercy and yet still see fit to reject him. God knows all of these, just as he knows all of those who will respond in the opposite way. And I believe it is with such knowledge that God is able to pre-appoint the bride of Christ. The most common misunderstanding of freewill in faith issues, to my thinking, is that we have the freewill to walk in and out of Yeshuas headship and sovereignty as we please (which I believe is not so) and many are turned off by the idea that once your life belongs to Christ (ie you accept payment for your sins through his blood) it does indeed belong to him and it is no longer yours to jeapordise to eternal perdition. Your relationship with him may wein, it may increase greatly at varying times in life, but always, ALWAYS it belongs to him and as such he is willing and able to keep it eternally secure and that is why I rebuke those who advocate a conditional salvation and security in Christ, because ultimately they are implying "Christ is not TRULLY the head of me, his dowry on my salvation is not sufficient and his sovereignty over me is not total, I'll leave if I want to." If trully you have salvation as you claim then your life no longer belongs to you and though your daily actions may profess a dedication to your bridegroom, your attitude to his headship is contrary to your labours and disrespectful of his Holy name.

[nebula]

Dear OC, would you please delete out the bulk of the posts you are quoting and leave up only the part that pertains to what you are addressing?

I already know what I said, I don't need to re-read it!

ms nebula

I know you are not the gatekeeper but you have put yourself out as the preacher who's doctrine has suggested to me all is under the blood secure and I have the assurance of my salvation as prescribed by you in that relam Stop being evasive

If your beliefs if you are fully persuaded of them

If I commited suicide tonight Would I go to Heaven?

Yes or No

And you have put yourself out as the preacher who's doctrine suggests that salvation is conditional and God's grace and atonement are limited.

You know, when the Pharisees and teachers of the Law asked Jesus whether or not it was Lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, did He give them a direct yes or no?

When the Sadducees - who don't believe in the resurrection - asked Jesus about the woman who had multiple husbands, all of whom died without a child being born, asking who'd wife she would be at the resurrection, did Jesus answer the question directly?

No.

And why not?

Because He was addressing their faulty theology behind the question.

If the Pharisees continued with, "So does that mean yes or no?" do you beleive Jesus would have given them a yes or a no, or state that, "I already told you my answer."?

BTW, I do not prescribe by eternal security nor limited security. Both sides have their valid Scriptures and both sides have their numerous faults.

If you are holding a cocked gun to your head and asking me if you will go to Heaven or Hell if you pull the trigger, I would answer, "You are going to regret the decision no matter where you end up." And I would be praying for you and encouraging you to think on Jesus and affirming that it is a lie of Satan that pulling the trigger is the solution to your problem and things like that.

[Ovedya]

NewPilgrim,

I have so stated within my post to you already that I have the assurance of my salvation by faith and I do not care of your belief about you in where you would go. If it is all under the blood as the gospel you have presented to me and are or have been defending is so thus and you have been fully persuade of then stop being evasive and answer with a yes or no

If I was to commit suicide tonight Would I go to Heaven? Yes or No

Openly Curious

If you are a blood washed, spirit regenerated believer in teh Lord Jesus Christ, then the answer is no.

You would sleep, and then you would inherit the kingdom of the God at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

(Oops! have I opened another can of worms? )

Inasmuch as you understand the question, the answer is yes.

Ovedya

I appreciate your humor but I am not asking about the ressurection of the dead nor do I want to get into that can of worms.

Inasmuch as you understand my question in your beliefs a simple yes or no

If I was to commit suicide tonight Would I go to Heaven?

Yes or no

Openly Curious

Clear as mud?

Good.

You still didn't answer my questionabout Samson directly with a yes or no of your own.

Ovedya

When you give me a clear cut yes or no in your beliefs you have presented to me then maybe we can talk about Samson.

Until then I only await one simple reply from you.

If I was to commit suicide tonight Would I go to Heaven

Yes or No

Openly Curious

Oh, brother......Where's that wall?

What you are doing here is a very common avoidance tactic. Frankly it's in poor taste. You can't answer the Samson question because it defies your previous statements about suicide. So you avoid the quesntion entirely by trying to distract it with another issue. Then when it's brought to your attention you attach a condition upon it: I'll answer yours if you answer mine first. It's really very childish.

If you can't answer the question that I asked you yesterday, and prepeated yesterday several times, just tell me that you can't answer it! Stop with all the Red Herrings, for goodness' sake.

[Ovedya]

In the instance of suicide, my point is that since a true born again believer should show a changed lifestyle, and suicide is not the type of action a Christian would be doing, perhaps someone that commits suicide wasn't really saved, but only thought they were?

So, you are saying directly to my face that I am not saved.

I believe in the death of Jesus for my sin and in His resurrection. I have repented of my sin. I have been baptised. I make the effort to restrain myself from "the pleasures of this world" so that I may please God. I have determined to seek His face.

Yet because I have this struggle, you are telling me that all of that is rubbish.

Gre-e-e-e-a-a-t.

No I am not. I said perhaps you were not saved if you carried out such an action. I said that based upon OSAS doctrine whereby when someone's lifestyle doesn't reflect a conversion, I hear, "they were never really saved." As I said, I know of people in all types of sins that claim to have been saved, and they live worse than many sinners. I was in a truck stop one time and had a conversation with a so-called Christian that cursed every other word with no apologies and lived like any sinner. He claimed eternal security. I witnessed to one man claiming eternal security that was drinking a beer and living with a woman he wasn't married to. When I bring up such examples, I hear from those of the OSAS belief, they weren't really saved, though they "believe in the death of Jesus for" their "sin and his resurrection." You repented of your sins, but through suicide would be choosing wilfully to leave this world with a sin on your garment. It has nothing to do with a struggle. It has to do with deliberate, wilful disobedience.

By the way, you still never answered my first questions. Since you believe you would make it to heaven, but wouldn't hear well done, does that mean you would lose your mansion and have a little log cabin in the corner of heaven? Would your eternal job be street cleaner for the streets of gold? What would be the consequences of your sin?

Politely: Let's not have a OSAS debate here.

[Guest NewPilgrim]

NewPilgrim,

So then in your beliefs and in the gospel you hold out to others yes or no

If I commited suicide tonight Would I go to Heaven?

Yes or No

I've made my position quite clear to you several times in simple language.

Get behind me satan.