nebula Posted March 24, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.94 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted March 24, 2006 (edited) I said perhaps you were not saved if you carried out such an action. As far as I'm concerned, that is just as stupid. You truly do not understand severe, major depression. I said that based upon OSAS doctrine whereby when someone's lifestyle doesn't reflect a conversion, I hear, "they were never really saved." As I said, I know of people in all types of sins that claim to have been saved, and they live worse than many sinners. . . . And I agree - to use eternal security as a justification for living a life of sin is abusing God's grace. Paul warned against using our freedom in Christ as a cover for evil. That's the biggest hole with the OSAS doctrine. You repented of your sins, but through suicide would be choosing wilfully to leave this world with a sin on your garment. It has nothing to do with a struggle. It has to do with deliberate, wilful disobedience. Again, you do not understand what it is like to have been living in the state of a major depressive episode, as it is called. By the way, you still never answered my first questions. Since you believe you would make it to heaven, but wouldn't hear well done, does that mean you would lose your mansion and have a little log cabin in the corner of heaven? Would your eternal job be street cleaner for the streets of gold? What would be the consequences of your sin? Like I said, I can't answer because I don't know. The Lord didn't show me that far. So how can I answer? BTW - I would actually prefer the log cabin to the mansion. But what would break my heart would be to be distanced from the Lord - if that's what the "corner of Heaven" meant. That was not a risk I wanted to take. Edited March 24, 2006 by nebula Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest NewPilgrim Posted March 24, 2006 Share Posted March 24, 2006 I'll come clean the cabin for you Neb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ovedya Posted March 24, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 375 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 11,400 Content Per Day: 1.44 Reputation: 125 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1971 Share Posted March 24, 2006 Hmmmm....I think that I'd almost prefer to be a street cleaner in the New Jerusalem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest NewPilgrim Posted March 24, 2006 Share Posted March 24, 2006 I havent read Calvin, or Luther or any espoused theologian really. I'm a Goddist. If I'm wrong on some issues, you can put that down to imperfection. Thankfully that wont last forever To be honest, though I grasped the jist of the paradox that you were trying to show, I personally see no conflict between forknowledge freewill and sovereignty. God claims that all three are apparent and mutual in his creation, if I dont understand all the finer points of it, its because I have a tiny brain. But I read it, experience it and accept it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Openly Curious Posted March 24, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,568 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 770 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted March 24, 2006 Dear OC, would you please delete out the bulk of the posts you are quoting and leave up only the part that pertains to what you are addressing? I already know what I said, I don't need to re-read it! ms nebula I know you are not the gatekeeper but you have put yourself out as the preacher who's doctrine has suggested to me all is under the blood secure and I have the assurance of my salvation as prescribed by you in that relam Stop being evasive If your beliefs if you are fully persuaded of them If I commited suicide tonight Would I go to Heaven? Yes or No And you have put yourself out as the preacher who's doctrine suggests that salvation is conditional and God's grace and atonement are limited. You know, when the Pharisees and teachers of the Law asked Jesus whether or not it was Lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, did He give them a direct yes or no? When the Sadducees - who don't believe in the resurrection - asked Jesus about the woman who had multiple husbands, all of whom died without a child being born, asking who'd wife she would be at the resurrection, did Jesus answer the question directly? No. And why not? Because He was addressing their faulty theology behind the question. If the Pharisees continued with, "So does that mean yes or no?" do you beleive Jesus would have given them a yes or a no, or state that, "I already told you my answer."? BTW, I do not prescribe by eternal security nor limited security. Both sides have their valid Scriptures and both sides have their numerous faults. If you are holding a cocked gun to your head and asking me if you will go to Heaven or Hell if you pull the trigger, I would answer, "You are going to regret the decision no matter where you end up." And I would be praying for you and encouraging you to think on Jesus and affirming that it is a lie of Satan that pulling the trigger is the solution to your problem and things like that. ms nebula, But my gospel was wrong in your views and among others as you keep repeating repetitively if you want to convince me and go away then answer the question I pose to you give me a defense of your gospel if you are fully persuaded of the things you assert as being truth. For it will speak "volumes" to me about your strong beliefs. If it is of a truth as you assert along with Ovedya that I'll be just bodyless after I die. Then why cannot you assert the yes or no to me. If we are to be eternally judged by truth then answer my question for I really do need to know. If I was to commit suicide tonight Would I go to Heaven? Yes or No Openly Curious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ovedya Posted March 24, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 375 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 11,400 Content Per Day: 1.44 Reputation: 125 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1971 Share Posted March 24, 2006 In the instance of suicide, my point is that since a true born again believer should show a changed lifestyle, and suicide is not the type of action a Christian would be doing, perhaps someone that commits suicide wasn't really saved, but only thought they were? So, you are saying directly to my face that I am not saved. I believe in the death of Jesus for my sin and in His resurrection. I have repented of my sin. I have been baptised. I make the effort to restrain myself from "the pleasures of this world" so that I may please God. I have determined to seek His face. Yet because I have this struggle, you are telling me that all of that is rubbish. Gre-e-e-e-a-a-t. No I am not. I said perhaps you were not saved if you carried out such an action. I said that based upon OSAS doctrine whereby when someone's lifestyle doesn't reflect a conversion, I hear, "they were never really saved." As I said, I know of people in all types of sins that claim to have been saved, and they live worse than many sinners. I was in a truck stop one time and had a conversation with a so-called Christian that cursed every other word with no apologies and lived like any sinner. He claimed eternal security. I witnessed to one man claiming eternal security that was drinking a beer and living with a woman he wasn't married to. When I bring up such examples, I hear from those of the OSAS belief, they weren't really saved, though they "believe in the death of Jesus for" their "sin and his resurrection." You repented of your sins, but through suicide would be choosing wilfully to leave this world with a sin on your garment. It has nothing to do with a struggle. It has to do with deliberate, wilful disobedience. By the way, you still never answered my first questions. Since you believe you would make it to heaven, but wouldn't hear well done, does that mean you would lose your mansion and have a little log cabin in the corner of heaven? Would your eternal job be street cleaner for the streets of gold? What would be the consequences of your sin? Politely: Let's not have a OSAS debate here. I have no problem with wanting to keep them separate, but the problem is the suicide question and the question over the OSAS doctrine collide. A person that believes in the OSAS doctrine will believe some who commit suicide will go to heaven. A person that doesn't believe the OSAS doctrine will likely believe nobody that commits suicide will go to heaven. The two are interelated. In was inevitable both issues would wind up in this thread. I agree. I just don't want to see this thread trailing off into that particular aspect of the debate. These OSAS discussions get really lengthy and complex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ovedya Posted March 24, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 375 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 11,400 Content Per Day: 1.44 Reputation: 125 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1971 Share Posted March 24, 2006 Is this record in a loop? *--in a loop? *--n a loop? *---a loop? *---loop? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted March 24, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.94 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted March 24, 2006 If we are to be eternally judged by truth then answer my question for I really do need to know. Why do you need my answer? I am not your judge and jury. I cannot answer beyond what I have said. If I were at this moment struggling with suicide, if you told me that if I killed myself I would go to Hell, even if I didn't go through with it, your counsel would have affirmed my fear that God hovers over me with the big sledge hammer waiting to whop me on the head for every sin I commit. Your counsel would have driven me further from God. This is why I reject this counsel - it would have killed me. If you cannot accept this, too bad. That is all I have to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted March 24, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.94 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted March 24, 2006 BTW, OC - You never directly answered yes or not about the man dying in the car crash. I assumed you to be saying that he would go to Hell, but you never affirmed nor denied that. In those other posts you referred to, I never saw a, "Yes, he would go to Hell," or "No, he would not go to Hell." So your insistance of my giving a clear direct yes or no is quite hypocritical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Openly Curious Posted March 24, 2006 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,568 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 770 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted March 24, 2006 NewPilgrim, I have so stated within my post to you already that I have the assurance of my salvation by faith and I do not care of your belief about you in where you would go. If it is all under the blood as the gospel you have presented to me and are or have been defending is so thus and you have been fully persuade of then stop being evasive and answer with a yes or no If I was to commit suicide tonight Would I go to Heaven? Yes or No Openly Curious If you are a blood washed, spirit regenerated believer in teh Lord Jesus Christ, then the answer is no. You would sleep, and then you would inherit the kingdom of the God at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (Oops! have I opened another can of worms? ) Inasmuch as you understand the question, the answer is yes. Ovedya I appreciate your humor but I am not asking about the ressurection of the dead nor do I want to get into that can of worms. Inasmuch as you understand my question in your beliefs a simple yes or no If I was to commit suicide tonight Would I go to Heaven? Yes or no Openly Curious Clear as mud? Good. You still didn't answer my questionabout Samson directly with a yes or no of your own. Ovedya When you give me a clear cut yes or no in your beliefs you have presented to me then maybe we can talk about Samson. Until then I only await one simple reply from you. If I was to commit suicide tonight Would I go to Heaven Yes or No Openly Curious Oh, brother......Where's that wall? What you are doing here is a very common avoidance tactic. Frankly it's in poor taste. You can't answer the Samson question because it defies your previous statements about suicide. So you avoid the quesntion entirely by trying to distract it with another issue. Then when it's brought to your attention you attach a condition upon it: I'll answer yours if you answer mine first. It's really very childish. If you can't answer the question that I asked you yesterday, and prepeated yesterday several times, just tell me that you can't answer it! Stop with all the Red Herrings, for goodness' sake. Ovedya It is not childish at all wanting to know the truth in which those have been holding out to me as they have told me I was not right even argued their points in the matter and if I am wrong doctrinally as so many have said. Then it is up to you to persuade me and by answering my question it will speak "volumes" to me in this regards for then I will know you truly do believe the gospel truths of the secure salvation in which you believe and are wanting me to embrace if you do not have this confidence it will also speak "volumes" to me in the positions you hold among others that have been presenting their doctrine to me within this thread. And it is you among others who could stop all the Red Herrings with a simple yes or no If I commited suicide tonight Would I go to Heaven? Yes or No Openly Curious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts