Are we all sinners, or what?

[buckthesystem]

This question came up in discussion today and nobody seemed to be able to sort it out. I was wondering if anybody on this board had any answers that I or others hadn't thought of:

Is it a paradox that we are told we are born sinners and yet we are also told we are born saved because of the sacrifice of Jesus at Calvary?

If the answer is that we are born saved, are our lives as humans designed to try and make us "fall from Grace" and also to put so many difficulties in our way that unless we are specifically chosen by God or happen to be directed towards "salvation", we are doomed to be kept in a state of sin always.

Surely if Jesus died on the Cross at Calvary for the sins of everybody including those who had not yet even been born, why are some of us told that "our salvation is not secure" even if we dod not live the "sinful lifestyle" but just never formally "accept Jesus as our saviour"?

Now here's the dilemma, I will quote:

"Scripture says the world and its ways are against God.

Christ says you cannot love Him and the world, Children are innocent,

children do not contain a cohesive central core of being around which

all thoughts revolve like adults, Thus also they have no fear except

the ones you teach them through your own, Scripture says they are born

sinners. Christ says they are innocent".

I suppose it all gets back to the question, why some and not others? Why are some people healed of physical illnesses or adictions when they pray while others are not and have to either suffer through or fight their own way out of it? Why do some become born again Christians and "live happily ever after" while others have a "hard row to hoe" and call on Christ but have to overcome so many difficulties as well?

[peaceafire]

I think I may have been present at that discussion earlier , and my question that arose was

Why do we draw lines in the sand for grace?

[David from New Bern]

This question came up in discussion today and nobody seemed to be able to sort it out. I was wondering if anybody on this board had any answers that I or others hadn't thought of:

Is it a paradox that we are told we are born sinners and yet we are also told we are born saved because of the sacrifice of Jesus at Calvary?

If the answer is that we are born saved, are our lives as humans designed to try and make us "fall from Grace" and also to put so many difficulties in our way that unless we are specifically chosen by God or happen to be directed towards "salvation", we are doomed to be kept in a state of sin always.

Surely if Jesus died on the Cross at Calvary for the sins of everybody including those who had not yet even been born, why are some of us told that "our salvation is not secure" even if we dod not live the "sinful lifestyle" but just never formally "accept Jesus as our saviour"?

Now here's the dilemma, I will quote:

"Scripture says the world and its ways are against God.

Christ says you cannot love Him and the world, Children are innocent,

children do not contain a cohesive central core of being around which

all thoughts revolve like adults, Thus also they have no fear except

the ones you teach them through your own, Scripture says they are born

sinners. Christ says they are innocent".

I suppose it all gets back to the question, why some and not others? Why are some people healed of physical illnesses or adictions when they pray while others are not and have to either suffer through or fight their own way out of it? Why do some become born again Christians and "live happily ever after" while others have a "hard row to hoe" and call on Christ but have to overcome so many difficulties as well?

It is difficult to know where to begin with all that you presented here. It seems to me that you are struggling with the issue of election. Did I choose or was I chosen?

You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.John 15:16NKJV

Find the answer to this question through discernment and all your other question will fall in sequence.

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Buck The System,

There is no paradox. Unless one is born-again, they have no salvation. The salvation is there alright, but one must take hold of it in the person of Jesus Christ. Once that is done, He sends the Holy Spirit to "guide you unto all truth", for the "unspiritual" cannot receive the things of God:

1 Cor 2:13-14 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Now if you are seeking "wisdom", it appears that you are seeking in all the wrong places. Man will give you many different answers, but God has only ONE answer, so:

James 1:5-8 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. 6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. 7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. 8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

so, if you want to gain wisdom about ANY subject:

2 Tim 2:15-16 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[cymba22]

Is it a paradox that we are told we are born sinners and yet we are also told we are born saved because of the sacrifice of Jesus at Calvary?

see the bit in red?..says whom? I have never heard it preached on 40 years that we are born saved....yes it is a contridiction.

Now here's the dilemma, I will quote:

"Scripture says the world and its ways are against God.

Christ says you cannot love Him and the world, Children are innocent,

children do not contain a cohesive central core of being around which

all thoughts revolve like adults, Thus also they have no fear except

the ones you teach them through your own, Scripture says they are born

sinners. Christ says they are innocent".

its only a dilemma as the bit of scripture you used in that(not all of it is scripture) has been taken completly out of context..

Why do some become born again Christians and "live happily ever after"

I have never known any human to have this...there is always something in the background that puts this as an illusion.

[carant2000_2001]

wow i am confused! i always remember hearing about an

age of accountability when i was growing up. we are all

sinners. but thank God we are sinners saved by the grace

of God.

in Christ,

carolyn

[st. Worm]

Its really not that difficult to grasp. We are indeed born sinners and condemned because of it. On the other hand, the Cross was for all men so in one sense justification is a universal term. The key is that we do not and cannot receive the forgiveness won at the cross (individual justification), apart from faith which is a gift we receive through the means of grace, God's Word and Sacraments. It is God who makes the dead (and truly we are born spiritually dead) come to life, not our "decision for Christ".

[seraphimbride]

If there's any room for just an opinion here, this is mine:

I believe we are all born sinners (all thanks to Adam and Eve). I'm not familiar with the "born saved" view. I also believe that ALL are given a choice to be saved or not. And that choice is to pick up ou0r crosses and follow the Lord, or to deny him. (free will)

just my view

[littlejoe]

This is my answer to your question, God knows who He will have Mercy on. But it is all in His own perfit timing. I was born in 1941 and was saved by The Grace of God in 1979. I am a student of the bible and know there are verses in it that apply to it. I shall leave that to those who can quote them to you. I will tell you my thoughts with the understanding that I am aways willing to be corrected by anyone on these boards. It was in the wonderful consul of God that Christ would die for me before the foundation of the World,and yet it was not until 1979 that I was connvicted of my sin and showned my need for The Lord Jesus Christ. I do my best to treat all professioning christains with a special love because they call my Lord Lord. And I try to treat all people I met with love because we share the love of God. I don't know all my brothers and sisters in Christ, I think I only know a few,but GOd Knows us all for we are His Blood bought children. He will call His people from all over The World from all different people.

But as far as I am concerned it is always in His Perfit Timing. I Hope this helps. Lovein Christ littlejoe

[nanasimmons]

Greetings Buck The System,

There is no paradox. Unless one is born-again, they have no salvation. The salvation is there alright, but one must take hold of it in the person of Jesus Christ. Once that is done, He sends the Holy Spirit to "guide you unto all truth", for the "unspiritual" cannot receive the things of God:

1 Cor 2:13-14 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Now if you are seeking "wisdom", it appears that you are seeking in all the wrong places. Man will give you many different answers, but God has only ONE answer, so:

James 1:5-8 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. 6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. 7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. 8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

so, if you want to gain wisdom about ANY subject:

2 Tim 2:15-16 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

Thank goodness for your wisdom you seem to know exactly what to say and when to say it.

Some of these questions seem so twilight zoneish to me. I'm not mocking the question,but there is definitly alot of confusion about scripture.

If I bought you a present and offered it to you,technically, It not really yours until you receive it,open it and use it.(or atleast receive it)

Jesus gave us the gift of salvation but one has to receive it before it actually belongs to them.

The offer is there for the taking, but not everyone receives it.

Of course He knows those who belong to Him, He's God.Read,Romans 9:6-33 which is talking in context about the Jews,But we can get understanding about the roles of the Potter and the clay.