Our Freewills

[Openly Curious]

you are not explaining your belief on freewill at all how does freewill get one saved and saved secure which is what I think you are advocating to me here. And I don't see where it was advocated of free will before salvation either.

I was not saying that free will gets you saved, quite the opposite. I am saying that when a person is dead, spiritually speaking, or not saved, they are incapable of free will. God has to intervene. because the Bible says that none seeks after God. It also says that we are slaves to sin or in bondage to it because we are sinners by our very nature. Going against our own nature is like a lion eating hay. This would be at odds with the lion's nature since he would be a carnivour by nature

When we are in our depravity and in bondage to our own sinfulness, we have no free will. We only do the desires of our own deceptive hearts. To do what I want to do. God has to intervene.

OC

[st. Worm]

butero:

"So God intervenes and calls us, yet we still have to choose whether to accept or reject his call."

SW:

And the regenerate who receive the gift of faith believe the gospel and the unregenerate don't. The Bible characterizes faith as a gift, NOT a choice. No free will involved.

[Openly Curious]

butero:

"So God intervenes and calls us, yet we still have to choose whether to accept or reject his call."

SW:

And the regenerate who receive the gift of faith believe the gospel and the unregenerate don't. The Bible characterizes faith as a gift, NOT a choice. No free will involved.

OC

wow faith is a gift now I know I heard that sometime back let's see vs3 romans 12 yes yes

[st. Worm]

OC,

Sarcasm requires a measure of writing skill or else the message you are trying to be sarcastic about loses something. (hint, hint)

The key here is that while faith is surely a gift, that gift is obviously not imparted to all. You previously said that faith was given to all but I think both Eric and I explained your error.

SW

[st. Worm]

butero says:

"O.C. was not in error. While the scriptures in question were about the gifts, the principle remains true in that we all have been given a measure of faith."

SW says:

The Apostle was clearly addressing believers only in this verse. There is absolutely no reasonable basis for saying this is applicable to all of humanity.

[chrismarc]

EricH said,

Just so you know, we also do not allow cutting and pasting from Catchecisms that are in oppostion to the Statement of Faith here at Worthy, or Linking to sites that hold doctrines in opposition to our statement of faith. You are free to describe what you believe in your own words, but not to copy and paste doctrine.

As a Catholic, my beliefs are those as taught by the Church.

When explaining one's faith shouldn't one use its official

church doctrine?

[chrismarc]

Marnie said,

I would like to see your Scriptural evidence that supports:

Infant baptism;Consubstantiation;

Multiple experiences of salvation;

Authority of the Pope as head of the Church

What do mean by consubstantiation and

multiple experiences of salvation?

You may do in in private if you wish; I know this is

off topic and I fear I have offended Eric once too often.

Eric said it was ok to do in separate threads, so i shall;

just not sure when.

[st. Worm]

butero says:

"OK SW, I understand what you are saying, however it does say God has given every man a measure of faith."

SW says:

butero, context is all important when interpreting a passage and the context of this passage is quite clear. It is with regard to gifts and how the faith of these believers is related to those.

[st. Worm]

"Do you believe John 3:16 literally means God so loved everyone in the world that he sent his Son, or only his chosen pre-destined few?"

That is the mystery of salvation butero. I believe the Bible teaches that God wishes that all would be saved yet we also know he does not save everyone. He could grant faith to all if he wanted yet he does not. Why he saves some and allows other to perish is never really answered. Some day we will understand perhaps. Election and predestination are biblical truths regardless and who are we to question God. As he says, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy.

Christ died for all yet you know as well as I many reject the gospel and an even greater number have lived and never heard the good news and died in their sins never hearing about Jesus. That is indeed part of election too.

sw

[Isaiah-smiles]

I can see the smoke coming out of your ears, so calm down. And your response has already crossed my mind, too, so don't waste your time, you won't change my opinion.

Oh no, I've learned a long time ago not to let the differences of doctrine offend me. All I can do is to present truth from the Bible as much as the Holy Spirit will allow. And if someone disagrees, then so be it. I still have alot to learn and probabley will still be learning for the rest of my days. That is because the Bible is inexhaustible.......but, please humor me and allow me to go on.

I believe if at some point for some reason I decide to walk away from G-d, He will allow me to do so, but I will suffer the eternal consequences. I do NOT believe one can lose their salvation, but I believe they can give it back of their own accord.

If you are truly a child of God through the rebirth of the spirit and are born into the family of God, He said that He will not leave you nor ever forsake you, even if somehow you chose to "give it back". Why? for several reasons;

1.) The blood covenant that God made with you through the blood of his preciuos Son is His to keep. Salvation is a gift freely given and once you open that gift, you receive that covenant that God offers, you can do nothing to "earn" that gift. The covenant that He made with Himself and for Himself. That covenant is unconditional because it is a gift freely given. But there is only one way of receiving that free gift. You receive it with a repentive attitude "And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner." (Luke 18:13)

2.) Remember the parable of the 99 and 1 sheep? Jesus said that the good shepherd left the 99 to go after the 1. If you try to walk away, God will come after you. He will allow obstacles and trials to be placed in your path in order to bring you back. He will chastin you as a loving parent would their own child. Show me in the Bible as an example of God making a covenant with a person or people and allow them to simply walk away. It's not there.

3.) "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you." (John 14:16,17) Though you may TRY to walk away you will still be Taking the Holy Spirit with you. Thats why the bible teaches us that we can Grieve the Holy Spirit by our words and action. Do you want more proof that the Holy Spirit will never leave you? Read on....

4.) "O LORD, thou hast searched me, and known me. 2Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off. 3Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways. 4For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether. 5Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me. 6Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.

7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? 8If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. 9If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; 10Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me. 11If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me. 12Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee." (Psalm 139:1-12)

If a person that you know, has ever walked away and never came back then they NEVER knew Christ to begin with. Sure, they might have said a prayer or called out to the Lord to help them, but even the world, when in trouble, will do the same but usually it's just for the moment, until everything is fine again. Check out what (1 John 2:19) says, "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."

I hope this is helpful, til next post.

Edited April 16, 2006 by Isaiah-smiles