Our Freewills

[st. Worm]

"To deny man's free will is to make G-d look like some kind cosmic puppeteer, pulling our strings. Sorry, I just don't see that in the Bible."

Of course, that's a complete caraciture of the position of Augustine, Luther, Calvin and all other credible teachers concerning free will. We always choose what we want. The problem is that in our natural condition we have only the ability to choose the bad. To say otherwise is to deny God his glory as the real cause of our salvation by His grace.

[Openly Curious]

"Thanks for the recommendation on the book called "Bondage" but I'm more the plain ole bible type it's more reliable as far as true truth goes and I can trust in it for the answers I seek. blessings

OC"

OC, I will only say that even though the Bible is inerrant and infallable we can learn much about the Bible from great teachers, men who devoted their entire lives to God's Word. Luther, though not inerrant, is certainly one of those men. I know I would certainly never pretend to be able to understand the Bible without men like him and others offering guidance and insight.

SW

'st. worm"

so do you have any more guidance and insights of your own to offer me as I am seeking counsel and advice from other believers that's why i started the thread for to learn from others what I'm lacking.

OC

[Openly Curious]

"To deny man's free will is to make G-d look like some kind cosmic puppeteer, pulling our strings. Sorry, I just don't see that in the Bible."

Of course, that's a complete caraciture of the position of Augustine, Luther, Calvin and all other credible teachers concerning free will. We always choose what we want. The problem is that in our natural condition we have only the ability to choose the bad. To say otherwise is to deny God his glory as the real cause of our salvation by His grace.

st.worm

could you eloborate more on what you mean in having only the ability to choose the bad. I get the part about salvation through faith by grace just fine and to God I give all the glory.

Openly Curious

[Marnie]

But how does one get the power over their free wills and line them up with the word of God. bless you for taking the time to listen to an old woman rattle off.

OC

OC, It's a spiritual struggle we fight every day! That's why we need to put our "armour" on each and ever day. The old-timers in church call it "getting the victory," sanctification is in once sense a progressive thing, which is why we read things like "we are saved," past tense and "we are being saved," present tense.

A verse that has helped me a lot in breaking my will has been Ephesian 6:12--

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Once I get that perspective and put on the "armour of light," Romans 13:12, I find it a lot easier to submit to Him.

[Marnie]

"To deny man's free will is to make G-d look like some kind cosmic puppeteer, pulling our strings. Sorry, I just don't see that in the Bible."

Of course, that's a complete caraciture of the position of Augustine, Luther, Calvin and all other credible teachers concerning free will. We always choose what we want. The problem is that in our natural condition we have only the ability to choose the bad. To say otherwise is to deny God his glory as the real cause of our salvation by His grace.

Written like a true Calvinist! I would be classified as a Reform Christian, but common sense sees unsaved people doing good things all the time. Witness the generosity of people who came to help during Katrina and 9/11. Of course, a Calvinist does not see people doing good things simply for the love of their fellow man. To them, the reason people do good things is to earn passage to heaven. I completely disagree with that way of thinking. There are unsaved people who do heroically good things all the time for no other reason than to help someone else. Of course, they can't do enough good deeds to buy their salvation; that is not what I am saying. Being in bondage to sin does not mean a person will choose to sin every time they are given that choice. Sometimes they choose to do the right thing, sometimes not. Sometimes they do the right thing for the wrong reason, but that does not take away the fact they did the right thing. I suspect a great many Christian's motives won't bear up under the Lord's scrutiny, either.

Face it, there are an equal number of Scriptures for each side of the argument, and I am sure everybody here has beat the Calvinist/Arminian positions to death by now.

To say sinful man can choose to do good in no way denies G-d any glory at all. Salvation is entirely by grace; man's efforts amount to nothing in that regard.

Okay, I am prepared for the Calvinist pelts now.

[st. Worm]

No offense, Marnie, but its obvious you are not sure what you are talking about. I am a Lutheran and not a Calvinist.

Also when we talk about good works, we must distinguish between so called civil righteousness and things that actually are pleasing to God (all is sin that is not from faith). Even unbelievers can do works that appear good to us. God looks at things differently and has a different standard. The best and most heroic works of the unbeliever are still works of sin in God's eyes. The unbeliever still is laboring under the Law and unless the Law is done perfectly and without failure 100% of the time its still sin.

[Openly Curious]

But how does one get the power over their free wills and line them up with the word of God. bless you for taking the time to listen to an old woman rattle off.

OC

OC, It's a spiritual struggle we fight every day! That's why we need to put our "armour" on each and ever day. The old-timers in church call it "getting the victory," sanctification is in once sense a progressive thing, which is why we read things like "we are saved," past tense and "we are being saved," present tense.

A verse that has helped me a lot in breaking my will has been Ephesian 6:12--

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Once I get that perspective and put on the "armour of light," Romans 13:12, I find it a lot easier to submit to Him.

Dear sweet Marnie

thank you once more for your kind fellowship. and I know the things you say once again are true and right and I have practiced them through the years but still I need to be reminded of them. When I read through this response I pictured myself getting up one morning and just plum forgot to put on the shield of faith that day and wham I got hit with those fiery darts because of my slackness. I guess when push comes to shove it is really fear that I will not survive this attack of the enemy for it got the better of me in my earlier walk with the Lord and now I'm flooded with it all over again maybe because it didn't all get closure to it all back then I'm not sure why and I know you have no idea of what I'm rattle off about but I'm rattling just the same. I'll try to heed to this advice and counsel of yours doing double time duty on it to keep the right focus through this wrestling match. I don't want to crumble and fall apart and I do want his will over my free will. God bless you

Openly Curious

[Isaiah-smiles]

The fact the at the Great White Throne Judgment unrepentant sinners will be judged according to their works would indicate that man does indeed have a free will.

The Great White Throne does not indicate anything but the degree of torment (or punishment) a person will receive according to their works.

The notion that man cannot have a free will because of G-d's forknowledge is a false conclusion; foreknowledge is passive, G-d simply knows the direction you will take, He does not force anybody to do anything.

And with this statement, you put God in the catagory of a physic, and neglect His Soverienty, controling the events of man's history to an ultimate end. Whether that end is the lake of fire or in His presence (Heaven). And the fact that this world system will come to an end is foretold and God will perform it. (Isaiah 46;10- "Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:")

Here are just a few examples of God's Soverienty;

1.) He told Moses that He was going to harden Pharoah's heart.

2.) God even told Rebecca that the older shall serve the younger before they were born. And if you notice God's involvemnt in Jacob's life (although his very named meant; "deceiver"), where was God in Esa's life.

3.) What about Jonah? He hated the ninevites with a passion, but didn't God force him against his will? Jonah didn't want to tell them of the impending judgement of God, he hated them and wanted to see God judge them. Even when the ninevites repented Jonah sulked.

4.) most people who claim that they had free will before Salvation has a hard time explaining the chapter of Romans 9.

Let me ask a few questions;

1.) Who chose you before the foundations of the world?

2.) who said, "For many are called, but few are chosen." (Matt. 22:14) And what did He mean by that statement?

3.) From who or where does your faith come from? (Romans 10:17)

4.) Who convinces us of sin?

5.) Who then, is it that draws us or woos us to christ?

6.) Who will keep us to the end and is the author and finisher of our faith?

Jesus, who is God in the flesh, even stated: "Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. 23And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. 24But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee."(Matt. 11:21-24)Why wouldn't He be willing to allow such "mighty works" so that they might of repented in sackcloth?

Why didn't God do this if He is willing that none should perish? Actually that scripture is often mis-quoted. This is what it actually says: (KJV, 2 Peter 3:9) "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." Who was Peter talking to? The elect? The previous verses reveals who he wasn't talking to.

One thing i've noticed about people adhering to the notion of a "free will" before salvation are the same ones who mistakenly think that they can "pluck" themselves out of God's hands once they are saved (free will). They do not believe in the security of salvation. It's not a question of whether you lost your salvation, but rather, you need to ask yourself wether you were ever saved or not.

Well, I rest for now.

[Openly Curious]

'Isaiah-smiles'

One thing i've noticed about people adhering to the notion of a "free will" before salvation are the same ones who mistakenly think that they can "pluck" themselves out of God's hands once they are saved (free will). They do not believe in the security of salvation. It's not a question of whether you lost your salvation, but rather, you need to ask yourself wether you were ever saved or not.

Well, I rest for now.

[Marnie]

No offense, Marnie, but its obvious you are not sure what you are talking about. I am a Lutheran and not a Calvinist.

Also when we talk about good works, we must distinguish between so called civil righteousness and things that actually are pleasing to God (all is sin that is not from faith). Even unbelievers can do works that appear good to us. God looks at things differently and has a different standard. The best and most heroic works of the unbeliever are still works of sin in God's eyes. The unbeliever still is laboring under the Law and unless the Law is done perfectly and without failure 100% of the time its still sin.

No, I am 100% sure about what I am talking about. I am happy you are a Lutheran; tickled pink in fact, it puts your comments in perspective for us.

Yes, the acts of good I was referring to are good in the eyes of man; I believe that was the point I was making.