Did Mother Teresa know what it takes?

[apothanein kerdos]

Fallen sinners in a distorted image of God. Read Genesis 9 and all other passages dealing with man being in God's image then get back to me.

Get back with you? for what?

If you have something to say . . . just say it. Don't hand out assignments, especially "Genesis 9 and all other passages dealing with man being in God's image." Good grief man. I don't have to agree with you or you with me . . . but you'll do better just stating your point if you want me to understand it.

Maybe, just maybe, I'm encouraging you to study the issue because you'll get more out of it.

I only say that because it's a fact, we are all in the image of God, saved or not. Jesus' image is in us all, and we have to respect that.

[BlindSeeker]

Maybe, just maybe, I'm encouraging you to study the issue because you'll get more out of it.

I only say that because it's a fact, we are all in the image of God, saved or not. Jesus' image is in us all, and we have to respect that.

Maybe, maybe not. The forum is a place for exchange for thought and the reasoning thereof. If I were perplexed and confused I could used the encouragement. Regarding study, I assume everyone here posting is engaged in it . . . that's why they are here exchanging thought and reasoning.

I disagree however about Jesus' image being "in us all." The fact that we all have one head and two legs and arms does not communicate the devine attributes of God.

[apothanein kerdos]

Maybe, just maybe, I'm encouraging you to study the issue because you'll get more out of it.

I only say that because it's a fact, we are all in the image of God, saved or not. Jesus' image is in us all, and we have to respect that.

Maybe, maybe not. The forum is a place for exchange for thought and the reasoning thereof. If I were perplexed and confused I could used the encouragement. Regarding study, I assume everyone here posting is engaged in it . . . that's why they are here exchanging thought and reasoning.

I disagree however about Jesus' image being "in us all." The fact that we all have one head and two legs and arms does not communicate the devine attributes of God.

How can you disagree that Jesus' image is in us all when the Bible clearly states that it is? Jesus even states that it is. Add to the fact that the image has nothing to do with our physical image but instead with our personalities. All humans can hold some form of emotions, intelligent thought, and creativity....all of which compose the image of God (this is what "image of God" in Genesis means). Genesis 9 states that man, even in his fallen nature, is in the image of God. James states that when we curse man, both saved and lost, we have cursed the image of God. Jesus says in Matthew that if we feed the poor, help the homeless, etc., then we have done these things to Him. Thus, when someone says, "I helped the poor because they had the image of Jesus in them" they are using a Biblical concept.

[tah]

Franklin Graham visited with Mother Teresa before her death at one of her ministry sites in Calcutta. He was greatly moved to watch her move through the cots of the sick and dying loving each one with personal attention. He asked through his guide if in those moments of ministry if she shared with them the key to the Kingdom. She said, "their Hindu faith teaches them that they are redeemed through their suffering and that is their way." Is this a revealing moment for catholic ministries do they have the keys to the Kingdom? Did Mother Teresa know what it takes to go to heaven? Or was she working her way to heaven?

David, perhpas a better questin would have been...

"Do Missionaries who are out in the field serving the most needy in the world tell those whom they help about the saving power Jesus?

perhaps you could start a new thread....

if that is your question of course...

Personally I do not understand watching someone on the verge of death go to hell and not to give them an opportunity to hear about Jesus...

Paul said he would have rather perish than his brethern.

Romans 9:2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.

3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

Some folks are offended when a "good person" is disparaged and will defend them.

What do you think of this suggestion for your question?

Should this have been a personal message??

[David from New Bern]

Franklin Graham visited with Mother Teresa before her death at one of her ministry sites in Calcutta. He was greatly moved to watch her move through the cots of the sick and dying loving each one with personal attention. He asked through his guide if in those moments of ministry if she shared with them the key to the Kingdom. She said, "their Hindu faith teaches them that they are redeemed through their suffering and that is their way." Is this a revealing moment for catholic ministries do they have the keys to the Kingdom? Did Mother Teresa know what it takes to go to heaven? Or was she working her way to heaven?

David, perhpas a better questin would have been...

"Do Missionaries who are out in the field serving the most needy in the world tell those whom they help about the saving power Jesus?

perhaps you could start a new thread....

if that is your question of course...

Personally I do not understand watching someone on the verge of death go to hell and not to give them an opportunity to hear about Jesus...

Paul said he would have rather perish than his brethern.

Romans 9:2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.

3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

Some folks are offended when a "good person" is disparaged and will defend them.

What do you think of this suggestion for your question?

Should this have been a personal message??

No, the OP is what it is...If it rattles you or anyone else...we all need to be rattled to get us honest and to draw in ink instead of pencil all the time. There is no way to talk about anything of real substance without often dismantling some people's nice little world and not offending they way they prefer to see it. The non-catholic world holds Mother Teresa with great respect and see her as representative of Christian ideals. The Catholic church hold her in such high esteem that they fast tracked her to sainthood. Now, that is another whole thread of discussion. But, my point with this, it is completely fair to examine her theology or lack of theology being she is upheld by the majority of the population as the example of faith and good service. Let the record show that good benevolent people will be in Hell. High profile religious servants will be in Hell.

[Fiosh]

Franklin Graham visited with Mother Teresa before her death at one of her ministry sites in Calcutta. He was greatly moved to watch her move through the cots of the sick and dying loving each one with personal attention. He asked through his guide if in those moments of ministry if she shared with them the key to the Kingdom. She said, "their Hindu faith teaches them that they are redeemed through their suffering and that is their way." Is this a revealing moment for catholic ministries do they have the keys to the Kingdom? Did Mother Teresa know what it takes to go to heaven? Or was she working her way to heaven?

David, perhpas a better questin would have been...

"Do Missionaries who are out in the field serving the most needy in the world tell those whom they help about the saving power Jesus?

perhaps you could start a new thread....

if that is your question of course...

Personally I do not understand watching someone on the verge of death go to hell and not to give them an opportunity to hear about Jesus...

Paul said he would have rather perish than his brethern.

Romans 9:2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.

3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

Some folks are offended when a "good person" is disparaged and will defend them.

What do you think of this suggestion for your question?

Should this have been a personal message??

No, the OP is what it is...If it rattles you or anyone else...we all need to be rattled to get us honest and to draw in ink instead of pencil all the time. There is no way to talk about anything of real substance without often dismantling some people's nice little world and not offending they way they prefer to see it. The non-catholic world holds Mother Teresa with great respect and see her as representative of Christian ideals. The Catholic church hold her in such high esteem that they fast tracked her to sainthood. Now, that is another whole thread of discussion. But, my point with this, it is completely fair to examine her theology or lack of theology being she is upheld by the majority of the population as the example of faith and good service. Let the record show that good benevolent people will be in Hell. High profile religious servants will be in Hell.

[tah]

it is completely fair to examine her theology or lack of theology being she is upheld by the majority

Naahh, your post doesn't rattle me...

I am not part of that group , as I have never held high profile folks like Mother Teresa and Princess Di and Reverand Graham or any number of "good people" any higher than my family members..

we are all just folks..some of us are in a position to just do some "really good things"..

Rom 13:7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

We certainly do know that she fullfilled the law...

I understand your question is pointed at her and her alone..or is it the catholic church??

if she was teaching works...she was wrong ..

If she never told those near death about Jesus, she was wrong.

Did she understand the blood of Jesus?I certainly do not know..

I do not understand it personally but folks are still going to be defensive about "good people"...

I remember the very day I realized it..

someone said something about Princess Di long before she had died and a friend just bristled with indignation that anyone say any thing less than wonderful about her....

that really surprised me and I started a prayer for that person that God would help them to see that we are all equal in Gods eyes....hopefully she has come to see that herself...

If Princess Di had not died on the same day as Mother Teresa she would have recieved all that adoration instead of Di... ...I don't get it...

Do you think your post is going to help someone see the truth?about Jesus being the only way to salvation?

I have Catholic family members and they are Christians who understand that the only way to salvation is through the blood of Jesus and only through the blood of Jesus...

I understand that some Catholics believe works get them there but there are other people from other denominations who feel the same way so I am not going to pick the Catholic Church as unchristian.

Funny You should mention that Scripture (Matthew 7:21-23 NKJV) as it was the first thing that crossed my mind when I read your first post...

Ok, David, I am outta here .....I hope that was not to rambly...

but I am considering posting the question about the Missionaries on another section...I am curious...

[Kabowd]

"Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 'For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.' "Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 'And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 'When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' "The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me." (Mat 25:34-40)

The meeting of physical needs is a window to reach someone with the truth of the gospel.Survey the Scriptures and you will find that for every miracle Jesus performed there was a spiritual purpose in the wings.

Meeting physical needs in Christ's name is a very crucial part of the truth of the gospel. In Colossians 1:15-16, Paul teaches us that through Christ everything was created. The things that are visible and the things that are invisible. While our physcial body is temporary, that does not make it less valuable to God. To elevate "spiritual" needs above "physical" needs is a form of gnosticism. Christ never insisted that we rise above our humanity, to some greater "spiritual" existence. He cared for the physical needs of people because He cares for humanity, the whole person...not just their "spirit". There are over 2300 Scriptures pertaining to the poor and needy. Social justice is clearly an important issue to God, and not just because He has an alterior motive. He genuinely cares about the entire being. Living the truth of the gospel is not just about getting souls saved. Of course we should share the reason for the hope that is within us (1 Peter 3:15), but quite often people don't care to know unless they know you care. Paul also teaches that it was God's kindness towards us that led us to repentance. If we do the acts that Jesus did (which was meeting spiritual needs AND physical needs), then we are living the gospel. How do you know that the people Mother Teresa touched weren't moved by her compassion and put their faith in Christ? How do you know that in their utter bewilderment over her kindness, that they didn't ask her why she cares? How do you know that she was silent and did not respond with the gospel of Christ as her reason why?

Mother Teresa was dealing with the dying. If she didn't feel the need to mention salvation to the dying she should have moved over and have let someone who would do it.

First of all, you're assuming. Secondly, do you think any person dies without an opportunity to know God? Is God not Sovereign? Scripture clearly teaches 1) that any act of kindness or goodness is the direct result of God's doing and 2) those who have the ability to understand, and have seen creation are without excuse. God can save a soul without a word ever being spoken. You seem to imply that unless someone is going around praying "the sinner's prayer" with people that they are not fulfilling their calling, or that souls will be lost unnecessarily. This isn't so. It's not like Mother Teresa, or anyone for that matter, will destroy God's ultimate plan. Of course we can be hinderances, but more often than not, it's those who are sitting on their butts in pews (considering this their "worship") who are hinderances to advancing God's kingdom. Someone who is out LIVING their faith, showing compassion, sacrificing, suffering for others and caring for humanity is far less likely to be the one who needs to "move over". Usually the people in the way of ministry are the one's who speak the words of Christ fluently, but because they lack compassion and selflessness their words fall on deaf ears.

Instead she didn't want to disturb the culture.

Again, you're assuming. But even so, being sensitive to the culture you're ministering too isn't foolishness it's actually wise. You can't go into a country and offend them by disrepecting their heritage and culture and then expect to win them over to your point of view on anything...especially your religion. Certainly this doesn't mean we conform to their culture, but a great sensitivity is needed. Any missionary in any foreign culture understands this.

That is a wasted opportunity. If it happened with frequency it was a wasted ministry. If it was a pattern for a life of "ministry" it was a wasted life. If she didn't know any better it is deceptive religion. There is no way to make the gospel as simple as benevolent handout or a caress of acceptance.

Honestly, the reason I find this topic somewhat disturbing is there's a spirit of arrogance behind it. It's easy to point the finger at someone with a high profile and examine their life under a microscope, but how often are we as eager to probe our own thoughts and motives? How many of us have willing laid down even a few days of our lives in service to those who were desperate, much less willing to devote our entire lives to such? We sit in the comfort of our own homes, in a free country and scrutinize and analyze someone's life to see if it matches up to our standards. Did Mother Teresa ask each person she encountered if they knew Christ? I have no idea. But until I've attempted to live the gospel of Christ in honesty and truth (in word AND deed) then I have no room to be critical of her. All I have to look at are her deeds, and her deeds were good. If all you can say is "what if" she didn't do this and "what if" she didn't do that, you have nothing but speculation and vain imaginations to go on. If you aren't out in every hospital ICU preaching Christ to the dying in your area, why aren't you? Does this make your life a waste? It's troubling to me that in Western Christianity there's a bit of a sport in criticizing other believers or speculating about them. I'm going to quote Steve Stockman from his book "Walk On" where he addresses this issue. Of course, he's referring to the criticism associated with Bono, but it applies here too:

"The press too have been quick to have a go at him for his do-gooding. Condemning someone for trying to save lives and help others is a remarkable indictment on third-millennium priorities. It is remarkable how human beings can be so belligerent about people trying to do good. Let us lambaste people who are trying to feed the hungry or fight for drugs for the dying. When did it become a crime for someone, no matter how successful or rich he or she is, to love their neighbor? What kind of society reads such things or believes such things or employs people who write such things? How far from the hippy dream has music moved when it is more useful to make a number-one single than keep people alive? Cheap shots at someone like Bono for being more interested in giving his time and rock star privilege for the benefit of others in order to sell magazines or newspapers would seem much more offensive."

Likewise, what kind of community seeks to demonize a woman who gave her life in service to others? When did it become un-Christlike to give up physical comfort, selfish ambition, personal convenience and devote your life in sacrifice to the needs of human beings? How far from being the Bride of Christ have we fallen when evangelical Christianity would rather speculate on the ministries of other Christians than live Christ and care for the dying? Cheap shots at someone like Mother Teresa (i.e. calling her life a waste) in order to "spark conversation" seems much more offensive.

[David from New Bern]

it is completely fair to examine her theology or lack of theology being she is upheld by the majority

Naahh, your post doesn't rattle me...

I am not part of that group , as I have never held high profile folks like Mother Teresa and Princess Di and Reverand Graham or any number of "good people" any higher than my family members..

we are all just folks..some of us are in a position to just do some "really good things"..

Rom 13:7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

We certainly do know that she fullfilled the law...

I understand your question is pointed at her and her alone..or is it the catholic church??

if she was teaching works...she was wrong ..

If she never told those near death about Jesus, she was wrong.

Did she understand the blood of Jesus?I certainly do not know..

I do not understand it personally but folks are still going to be defensive about "good people"...

I remember the very day I realized it..

someone said something about Princess Di long before she had died and a friend just bristled with indignation that anyone say any thing less than wonderful about her....

that really surprised me and I started a prayer for that person that God would help them to see that we are all equal in Gods eyes....hopefully she has come to see that herself...

If Princess Di had not died on the same day as Mother Teresa she would have recieved all that adoration instead of Di... ...I don't get it...

Do you think your post is going to help someone see the truth?about Jesus being the only way to salvation?

I have Catholic family members and they are Christians who understand that the only way to salvation is through the blood of Jesus and only through the blood of Jesus...

I understand that some Catholics believe works get them there but there are other people from other denominations who feel the same way so I am not going to pick the Catholic Church as unchristian.

Funny You should mention that Scripture (Matthew 7:21-23 NKJV) as it was the first thing that crossed my mind when I read your first post...

Ok, David, I am outta here .....I hope that was not to rambly...

but I am considering posting the question about the Missionaries on another section...I am curious...

Thanks for participating in the conversation... Mother Teresa or the Catholic Church or Ecumenical Movements that supply soup kitchens and clothing ministries or whatever...There is no target here...Mother Teresa has become the poster child of the conversation merely because we or the Catholic Church have promoted her as the icon of superhuman acts of kindness and service.

Edited April 16, 2006 by David from New Bern

[David from New Bern]

"Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 'For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.' "Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 'And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 'When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' "The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me." (Mat 25:34-40)

The meeting of physical needs is a window to reach someone with the truth of the gospel.Survey the Scriptures and you will find that for every miracle Jesus performed there was a spiritual purpose in the wings.

Meeting physical needs in Christ's name is a very crucial part of the truth of the gospel. In Colossians 1:15-16, Paul teaches us that through Christ everything was created. The things that are visible and the things that are invisible. While our physcial body is temporary, that does not make it less valuable to God. To elevate "spiritual" needs above "physical" needs is a form of gnosticism. Christ never insisted that we rise above our humanity, to some greater "spiritual" existence. He cared for the physical needs of people because He cares for humanity, the whole person...not just their "spirit". There are over 2300 Scriptures pertaining to the poor and needy. Social justice is clearly an important issue to God, and not just because He has an alterior motive. He genuinely cares about the entire being. Living the truth of the gospel is not just about getting souls saved. Of course we should share the reason for the hope that is within us (1 Peter 3:15), but quite often people don't care to know unless they know you care. Paul also teaches that it was God's kindness towards us that led us to repentance. If we do the acts that Jesus did (which was meeting spiritual needs AND physical needs), then we are living the gospel. How do you know that the people Mother Teresa touched weren't moved by her compassion and put their faith in Christ? How do you know that in their utter bewilderment over her kindness, that they didn't ask her why she cares? How do you know that she was silent and did not respond with the gospel of Christ as her reason why?

Mother Teresa was dealing with the dying. If she didn't feel the need to mention salvation to the dying she should have moved over and have let someone who would do it.

First of all, you're assuming. Secondly, do you think any person dies without an opportunity to know God? Is God not Sovereign? Scripture clearly teaches 1) that any act of kindness or goodness is the direct result of God's doing and 2) those who have the ability to understand, and have seen creation are without excuse. God can save a soul without a word ever being spoken. You seem to imply that unless someone is going around praying "the sinner's prayer" with people that they are not fulfilling their calling, or that souls will be lost unnecessarily. This isn't so. It's not like Mother Teresa, or anyone for that matter, will destroy God's ultimate plan. Of course we can be hinderances, but more often than not, it's those who are sitting on their butts in pews (considering this their "worship") who are hinderances to advancing God's kingdom. Someone who is out LIVING their faith, showing compassion, sacrificing, suffering for others and caring for humanity is far less likely to be the one who needs to "move over". Usually the people in the way of ministry are the one's who speak the words of Christ fluently, but because they lack compassion and selflessness their words fall on deaf ears.

Instead she didn't want to disturb the culture.

Again, you're assuming. But even so, being sensitive to the culture you're ministering too isn't foolishness it's actually wise. You can't go into a country and offend them by disrepecting their heritage and culture and then expect to win them over to your point of view on anything...especially your religion. Certainly this doesn't mean we conform to their culture, but a great sensitivity is needed. Any missionary in any foreign culture understands this.

That is a wasted opportunity. If it happened with frequency it was a wasted ministry. If it was a pattern for a life of "ministry" it was a wasted life. If she didn't know any better it is deceptive religion. There is no way to make the gospel as simple as benevolent handout or a caress of acceptance.

Honestly, the reason I find this topic somewhat disturbing is there's a spirit of arrogance behind it. It's easy to point the finger at someone with a high profile and examine their life under a microscope, but how often are we as eager to probe our own thoughts and motives? How many of us have willing laid down even a few days of our lives in service to those who were desperate, much less willing to devote our entire lives to such? We sit in the comfort of our own homes, in a free country and scrutinize and analyze someone's life to see if it matches up to our standards. Did Mother Teresa ask each person she encountered if they knew Christ? I have no idea. But until I've attempted to live the gospel of Christ in honesty and truth (in word AND deed) then I have no room to be critical of her. All I have to look at are her deeds, and her deeds were good. If all you can say is "what if" she didn't do this and "what if" she didn't do that, you have nothing but speculation and vain imaginations to go on. If you aren't out in every hospital ICU preaching Christ to the dying in your area, why aren't you? Does this make your life a waste? It's troubling to me that in Western Christianity there's a bit of a sport in criticizing other believers or speculating about them. I'm going to quote Steve Stockman from his book "Walk On" where he addresses this issue. Of course, he's referring to the criticism associated with Bono, but it applies here too:

"The press too have been quick to have a go at him for his do-gooding. Condemning someone for trying to save lives and help others is a remarkable indictment on third-millennium priorities. It is remarkable how human beings can be so belligerent about people trying to do good. Let us lambaste people who are trying to feed the hungry or fight for drugs for the dying. When did it become a crime for someone, no matter how successful or rich he or she is, to love their neighbor? What kind of society reads such things or believes such things or employs people who write such things? How far from the hippy dream has music moved when it is more useful to make a number-one single than keep people alive? Cheap shots at someone like Bono for being more interested in giving his time and rock star privilege for the benefit of others in order to sell magazines or newspapers would seem much more offensive."

Likewise, what kind of community seeks to demonize a woman who gave her life in service to others? When did it become un-Christlike to give up physical comfort, selfish ambition, personal convenience and devote your life in sacrifice to the needs of human beings? How far from being the Bride of Christ have we fallen when evangelical Christianity would rather speculate on the ministries of other Christians than live Christ and care for the dying? Cheap shots at someone like Mother Teresa (i.e. calling her life a waste) in order to "spark conversation" seems much more offensive.

No one has dismissed the humanitarian value of Mother Teresa's work. I have not asked anyone to draw the conclusion that we are to make a gospel presentation as the prerequisite to a hot meal or a place to die with dignity as in Calcutta. The conversation reported and quoted should send out red flags and questions though. Is Mother Teresa aware that Hundus are headed to Hell? Her quoted response should concern us. Why, because quite frankly a lot of people prefer to believe this. If she feels no urgency to confront their spiritually dangerous state, is she not with good intentions making their last days on earth comfortable but sending them to an eternity of Hell with false hope? Would she not be damning them to hell by her ommission of basic Christian concern? Is what she doing a valuable way to prove your love for someone as a precursor to sharing the key to the Kingdom, yes.

And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

Edited April 16, 2006 by David from New Bern