Shad Posted November 4, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 60 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 445 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 6 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/10/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/03/1974 Share Posted November 4, 2007 The bible clearly states nobody including The Angels knows the timing of the second coming so it's futile and silly to even try and guess the best thing to do is to accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Saviour as early in life as possible to ensure that you are always ready for when that day does come. All I know is that by looking at the state of the World today there are many many many millions if not billions of people who are not even close to being ready for that day and that breaks my heart because they have had since the beginning of time to accept God as their Saviour but have always and continue to put off doing so until they are ready and unfortunately when that day comes most of them still aren't going to be ready. And of course they will all cry out to heaven that they were going to do it that day but their cries will not be heard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massorite Posted November 4, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 38 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,973 Content Per Day: 0.32 Reputation: 36 Days Won: 2 Joined: 04/26/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/13/1953 Share Posted November 4, 2007 with all the stuff going on right now i was wondering when u think the rapture will happen? i just want to hear people's opinions on this Matthew 24:29-31 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days" etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whirlwind Posted November 4, 2007 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 113 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 11 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/06/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/22/1946 Share Posted November 4, 2007 If there is no rapture of the Church, and one has a worldly viepoint, you may as well just live it up and then go into the time of extreme testing to get your spiritual act together, and the injunction of Christ above to "pray always" is meaningless, we won't escape anything! My understanding is that we don't "pray always" in order to escape but pray to be strong enough in His Word to go through it. Is that not why we study and "put the gospel armor" on? Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, "sir, thou knowest." And he said to me, "These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." How would He know if we would or would not "take the mark of the beast" unless we were here to be tested? .........Whirlwind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massorite Posted November 4, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 38 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,973 Content Per Day: 0.32 Reputation: 36 Days Won: 2 Joined: 04/26/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/13/1953 Share Posted November 4, 2007 All I know is that by looking at the state of the World today there are many many many millions if not billions of people who are not even close to being ready for that day Good insight. Which is why the Tribulation is coming "to test those who dwell upon the earth". Yet Jesus says this in Luke 21 Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with dissipation, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you unexpectedly like a trap. For it will come upon all those who live on the face of the whole earth. Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man. If there is no rapture of the Church, and one has a worldly viepoint, you may as well just live it up and then go into the time of extreme testing to get your spiritual act together, and the injunction of Christ above to "pray always" is meaningless, we won't escape anything! Music to my eyes. I believe that the whole point of the tribulation is to weed out and purify the church because only those who endure to the end will Jesus be picking up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massorite Posted November 6, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 38 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,973 Content Per Day: 0.32 Reputation: 36 Days Won: 2 Joined: 04/26/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/13/1953 Share Posted November 6, 2007 So how about the Church over the last 100 year or so, it wasn't "purified", are those people lost? God knows who is genuine. Why does Jesus say this: "Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man."? Shouldn't have have instead said, pray always that you will endure what is about to happen? The context of Luke 21 is the events of the Tribulation. Actually, he was speaking of the coming destruction of Jerusalem. Rome was going to attack and destroy Jerusalem, and the temple. His warning was about that. This is why you find verses speaking of one person being taken in the blink of an eye. Over half the population of Jerusalem was slaughtered. He was speaking about the destruction that was going to take place. Same thing when he says if you're on the roof, stay there. If you're in the city, flee to the hills. Rome was coming. Thought I would give some food for thought on the "coming destruction of Jerusalem. What if the main belief that Jerusalem wiil be destroyed is wrong? There is no place where the bible explicitly says the Jerusalem will be destroyed again. In Revelation the bible says that only one half of Jerusalem will be destroyed by an earthquake and not by the so called armies coming from the north. In 2 Thess. 2:4 the bible says that the Antichrist will sit in the temple of God. So if Jerusalem is destroyed there won't be a temple for the Antichrist to sit in. The questions are. When will the earthquake take place and if Jerusalem is to be destroyed at what period during the seven years will it happen? And neither question is answered in the bible. Most teach that chapter 38 and 39 of the book of Ezekiel speak of the destruction of Jerusalem yet there is not word of the destruction in Jerusalem or Israel as a nation for that matter. In fact chapter 39 the word of God speaks the opposite. In verse 9 it says "And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth and and shall set on fire and burn the weapons both shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years". We should remember that the seven years spoken of here are the first seven years after the battle of Armageddon. So do the cities of Israel include Jerusalem? Since the destruction of Jerusalem is not spoken of in chapter 38 or 39 I would say yes. In verse 12 the bible says "And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them that they may cleanse the land". Does this verse include those still living in the city of Jerusalem? Yes. Many teach that chapter 38 and 39 speak of not only the destruction of Jerusalem but also the destruction of Israel altogether. However in chapter 38 there is not one single word about any battle taking place. Verse 11 says that Gog will say "I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars or gates". Now we know that because the bible say this is going to happen it will. But what we are not told is WHEN this will happen. Most believe that chapter 38 and 39 are connected to each other but what if they are speaking of two different events that will take place at two different times? If we do the research we will find that ch.38 is speaking of an Israel that has no weapons of war because they are living in complete and total peace with no reason to have any protective wall or bars that limit access to the cities or gates that one would have to go through to get into the cities. They will be living in total security/safety with no enemies to fear. Today Israel has one wall alone that is 30 feet high and is more then 400 miles long. They have all kinds of walls including high tech electronic walls that are surrounding Israel to keep the crazy bombers out and the walls are working. They land is also full of gate and check points where those who do not live in Israel get searched and checked for weapons and bombs going in and out of the land. Israel has not been at the kind of peace described in ch 38 since it became a nation again in 1948 and there is violence in Israel daily thanks to the Palestinians. Folks the description of Israel in ch. 38 does not fit the Israel of today. But it does fit in with the forces of Gog who will gather against Israel again at the end of the thousand years when satan is loosed once again to deceive the nations once more. In that prophecy the forces of GOG are gathered against Israel again but no battle will take place because Jesus will burn them all up with the sword of His mouth before they can do any harm to Israel. The belief that Israel will be destroyed again in our day or before or during the battle of Armageddon by any army is a false teaching with no scripture to support it. Over and over in the bible God talks about bringing the children of Israel out from among the heathen or from among the nations to dwell in the land the God gave them. Well that is happening today. Jews are even leaving from America to live in Israel. A rich man bought some jet liners to fly Jews to Israel from all over the world and pays for much of the cost. The ministry is called Aliyah and is run by a Rabbi Epstein. Is God bringing His people back to Israel so they can be destroyed once again? I think not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massorite Posted November 6, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 38 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,973 Content Per Day: 0.32 Reputation: 36 Days Won: 2 Joined: 04/26/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/13/1953 Share Posted November 6, 2007 So how about the Church over the last 100 year or so, it wasn't "purified", are those people lost? God knows who is genuine. Why does Jesus say this: "Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man."? Shouldn't have have instead said, pray always that you will endure what is about to happen? The context of Luke 21 is the events of the Tribulation. The church is not going to be purified until it goes through the tribulation period. What most don't see is that the whole purpose for the tribulation is to weed out the tares and perfect the wheat and only after that will the church be ready for the Bridegroom. To day the church is crippled. It has many false doctrinal teachings, the spirit of compromise is raging, the gay agenda has infiltrated 4 of the major denominations and it worships men made deity by other men. I could go on but I think that is enough. As long as the church is like this we aren't going anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damo1 Posted November 6, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 29 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,822 Content Per Day: 0.29 Reputation: 19 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/23/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/16/1967 Share Posted November 6, 2007 damo1 ok since i stated in this post and having re read what comments have been left to this topic that just keeps coming up on worthy and its not just the op hear seeking or talking on the rapture but sevral others as wel which i noticed in the topics i said why should i wory when jesus tells my why worry about what tomorow wil bring yet i am noticing we seem to have experts on this with out biblical back up or proof but only by asumtion and ones own understanding lets hear what matthew 42 has to say on this as it seems to me we are skipping what living word says matthew 24 new international version open study bible 19 how dread ful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers 20 pray that your flight will not take place in winter nor on the sabbath 21 for then their will be great distress unequaled from the begining of the world until now and over to be equaled again 22 if those days have not been cut short no one would survive but for the sake of the elect those days wil be shortend 23 but if any one says to you look here is the christ or their he is do not belive it 24 for false christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to decive the elect if that were possible 25 see i have told you ahead of time 30 at that time the sign of the son will apear in the sky and all the nations of the earth wil mourn they wil see the son of man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory 31 and he wil send his angels with a loud trumpet call and they wil gather his elect from the four winds form one end of heavens to the other 32 now learn this lesson from the fig tree as soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out you know that summer is near 33 even so when you see all these things you know that it is near right at the door 34 i tell you the truth this generation wil not pass away until all these things have happend 35 heaven and earth will pas away but my words will never pass away 24 / 22 the elect the people of god days cut short some hold that this statement means that the distress wil be of such intensity that if allowed to happen or continue it will destroy everyone others belive that christ refering the cutting short of previously determind time period such as 70th seven of daniel 9 -27 or the 42 months of revelations 11- 2 and revelations 13 - 5 Daniel 9 verse 27 he will confirm a covenant with many for one seven in the midle of the seven he wil put an end to sacrifice and offerings and on a wing of the temple he wil set upon that causes desolation until the end that is decreed is poured on him he will confirm a covenant wil put an end to sacrifice according to some a refrences to the messiahs the anointed one instituting the new cocenant and putting an end to ot sacrificial system according to others a refrence to the antichrist the ultimate ruler who wil come making a treaty with the jews in the futer and distrupting their system of worship and abomination that causes desolation Revelations 11- 2 - 3 but excluded the outer court do not measure it because because it has been given to the gentiles they wil trample on the holy city for 42 months and i wil give power to my two wittnesses and they wil prophecy for 1,260 days clothed is sackcloth Revelations 13 - 5 the beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exersice his athority for 42 months most even seem to think on doom and gloom for mankind on the end days or rapture that we are all going to be tortured and mamed and have terrible things done to us and some even think that christ is going to punish this wicked generation that is going to be left behind when he comes for the elect yet it also tell me in the book of revelations this Revelations 20 12 and i saw the dead great and small standing before the throne and books wear opend another book was opend which is the book of life the dead wear judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books 13 the sea gave up the dead that wear in them and each person was judged according to what he had done 14 then death and hades wear thrown into the lake of fire the lake of fire is the second death 15 if anyones name was not written in the book of life he was thrown into the lake of fire Revelations 22 12 behold i am comming soon my reward is with me and i wil give to every one according to what he has done 14 i am the alfa and the omega the first and the last the begining and the end 14 blessed are those that wash their robes that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city 15 out side are the dogs who practicise magic arts sexually immoral the murderers the idolaters and every one who loves and practices false hood it seems to me we like going way over our heads with out going to the source of gods word and alowing the holy spirit to bring in the truth and some how think we have this vast knowledge when it comes to our selves and our own way off uderstanding what we are reading when it comes to gods word did you ever hear jesus say to his disciple to worry about the rapture when he said come follow me did jesus say to the 12 know i want you to also discuss among your selves when i am with my father in heaven about the end days and about the rapture i want you guys to argue who might be the anti christ and so on do you get my drift no wear does it say this in the gospel of matthew the gospel of mark the gospel of luke and even the gospel of john that christ said to his disciples i want you to have this vast knowledge of when the rapture is going to happen so if christ did not pass this on to his disciples why should i worry my self on what is going to happen in last days when i have given scripture passages to what it says in gods word on what is going to happen in the last days lets hear it in plain english have you got visions do you dream dreams of when the rapture is going to happen can you honestly say you have been given the date the time and the year this is al going to hapen can you honestly say you wil be alive to wittness what is going to happen as i said in my post if i am hear when the rapture happens i pray that my father in heaven gives me the strength to endure what ever hapens in the last days unless my father in heaven calls me home and he feels i have served my time on this earth then i am ready to go home so why should i worry what tommorow wil bring when christ him self in the living word i am reading tells me not to worry man this topic just cracks me up with what i am hearing from damo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massorite Posted November 7, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 38 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,973 Content Per Day: 0.32 Reputation: 36 Days Won: 2 Joined: 04/26/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/13/1953 Share Posted November 7, 2007 The church is not going to be purified until it goes through the tribulation period. What most don't see is that the whole purpose for the tribulation is to weed out the tares and perfect the wheat and only after that will the church be ready for the Bridegroom. To day the church is crippled. It has many false doctrinal teachings, the spirit of compromise is raging, the gay agenda has infiltrated 4 of the major denominations and it worships men made deity by other men. I could go on but I think that is enough. As long as the church is like this we aren't going anywhere. And once again, what do you do with this verse? 1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us unto wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ. Lexicon Results for orgē (Strong's G3709) 1) anger, the natural disposition, temper, character 2) movement or agitation of the soul, impulse, desire, any violent emotion, but esp. anger 3) anger, wrath, indignation 4) anger exhibited in punishment, hence used for punishment itself a) of punishments inflicted by magistrates As born again Christians, we are not appointed to suffer the wrath of God. We cannot, we are saved. As true born-again believers, we are already "purified" by the blood of Christ. We can and do suffer from persecution at the hands of an unbelieving world, we do not suffer from the wrath of God. Anyone who says that we go through the tribulation to be "purified" is saying we will suffer from God's wrath. In essence, you are saying that born-again believers are going to be punished along with unbelievers, which is not the case. It cannot be, according to the above verse. Persecution from the world is not the same thing as God's wrath. Anyone who is not truly born-again is going to go through this period, so there is no need to "purify" the church. God knows who belongs to Him and who does not, so once again no need to purify. It has nothing to do with being part of a "church," it has everything to do with the condition of ones heart. The true church has always experienced persecution in one form or another or in one place or another. It has not been on the receiving end of God's wrath, and never will be. People do not seem to be able to make a distinction between persecution and wrath, or the true church, i.e. people who truly serve Jesus, and those who are Christian in name only. God knows the difference, and He is not going to punish those that are truly His. I agree. We are not appointed to suffer the Wrath of God so I have a question for you. If there are seven years of tribulation when does the wrath of God take place? The problem is in how one interprets the words "tribulation and wrath". The pre-tribbers teach that the seven years are going to be the wrath of God but they call the seven years the "seven year tribulation period". and teach that the wrath of Goid and tribulation are one in the same word. Which is a false assumption and it shows in what they say. Wrath and Tribulation have two diferrent meanings and speak of two differrent events. What do you consider to be tribulation and what do you consider to be the wrath of God. Would you consider the sufferings of the early church for nearly 250 years after the death of Christ to be the wrath of God or tribulation? They were burned alive, hanged, fed to wild animals, put in jail, stoned to death, boiled in oil alive, they weren't allowed to keep jobs and they were discriminated against for the name of Jesus. I could go on and on. Would that be tribulation or wrath? What about the more than 250,000 Christians who die every year in the name of Jesus. Women and young girls get acid thrown into their faces, they get throne into jail and tortured or killed. they get burned alive or are held over an open flame in an effort to get them to renounce Christ and convert to Islam. Did they suffer the wrath of God or did they suffer tribulation? My point here is that the concept of the "Wrath of God" is all jumbled up. Tribulation is the kind of suffering the early church went through. People actually converted over to Christianity from paganism because they saw that even though the Christians were suffering. They could see that they had something special and wanted what they had. What did Jesus say? "In the world you shall have tribulation". What did Paul say? "that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God". I could quote more scripture but it is getting late. I to us a Strongs and a Thayers Greek Lexicon and the numbers for the word "tribulation" in both of these Lexicons for all of the New Testament are 2347 and 2346. When you look these places up in your Lexicon you will find that not one of the places in the new or the old testaments where the word "tribulation" is used is speakingf of the WRATH of God Their deffinitions are always affliction and never wrath. Suffering in the name of Jesus is tribulation. Being tormented for 5 months by some giant flying scorpian looking insects, or scorched by the sun, or suffering great pain and torment without being able to die or suffering great sores on our bodies is the Wrath of God. Any more questions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric Posted November 8, 2007 Group: Graduated to Heaven Followers: 2 Topic Count: 50 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,073 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 43 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/02/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/10/1923 Share Posted November 8, 2007 The wrath of God during Daniel's 70th Week begins with the removal of the Church and the special ministry of the Spirit through the Church (i.e. the Spirit is "taken out of the way") and the subsequent revealing of the Antichrist (the first seal of Revelation 6). The eschatological wrath of God begins with the wrath of abandonment, which is how it always begins (Romans 1) If the church and the special ministry of the Spirit ( is taken out of the way ), from whom are the ones that going through the tribulation, receive their salvation? ie, the tribulation saints. You know,the ones who never received the MOB or worshipped him. If they were such faithful saints, why were they not taken in this rapture, you're all on about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
other one Posted November 8, 2007 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 29 Topic Count: 597 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,122 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 27,852 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted November 8, 2007 with all the stuff going on right now i was wondering when u think the rapture will happen? i just want to hear people's opinions on this December the 20th 2012 is my big guess. You can disagree if you like, but that's as good a day as any other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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