rapture

[Isa]

How does the Lord return?

At what point does the Lord return?

Who are the armies that return with the Lord?

[Isa]

At least I can write above a junior high level, something you consistently fail to do.

Hi guys as your friend in Christ I do believe this stabbing each other is not a very good witness to none believers who come and read these posts. I dislike seeing this happen to brothers or sisters in Christ, so why don't you just hug and make up and agree to disagree.

Edited November 19, 2007 by Isa

[Isa]

I get tired of being called a "liar" by this guy

Btw, the saints are with Christ at the second advent! Zechariah 14!

I believe the saints are with the Lord when He returns. Not just the church saints but the old testament saints and the tribulation saints. I believe these are what is called the Lords army.

[Isa]

I get tired of being called a "liar" by this guy

Btw, the saints are with Christ at the second advent! Zechariah 14!

We must remember we are not fighting against men here we are fighting against the powers of darkness. Rebuking one another doesn't help the cause. We are to show love to one another no matter what a person says or does to us.

WWJD. There are many times when I could have done the same thing but that is where self control comes in. Get ride of self and let God control.

[eric]

It's time to cool down folks. Please read the board's TOS and stop attacking each other. We don't call other members of Worthy, liars or question their literary qualifications whether they be students or professors. If everything was as clear cut as some of you claim the subject of rapture pre or post is, it wouldn't have been raised as often as it has been in the 100 years or more.

[Guest shiloh357]

My argument here is that the discussion itself and the ridiculous statements with regard to such being "devilish heresies" are most detrimental to the Body of Christ. These are non-essential positions over which we may freely disagree without sacrificing our oneness. Christians intentionally divide themselves from one another over such disagreements.

Precisely, Ovedya. A "heresy" properly understood is that which goes against established doctrine. Denying the Deity of Jesus would be, by definition, heretical. The belief that Jesus sacrifice on the cross was not sufficient and that Jesus had to go hell to pay for our sins would be heretical. Anything that would seek to add to the finished work of Christ on the cross is a heresy, by definition.

In Eschatology, there are three primary "rapture" theories. There are those who believe in a pre-trib, or mid-trib or a post-trib rapture. In addition, you have those who claim there will no rapture period and reject ANY rapture scenario. So, there are four basic positions available with respect to what one believes about the rapture.

Because the church has no established doctrine in this area, the charge of "heresy" is completely unwarranted with respect to how one views the rapture. It is just as foolish to throw around the term "heresy" in this type of discussion as it would be to call someone a heretic if they believe that Jesus either did or did not drink real wine at the last supper. People should be able to have differing views on nonessential issues like the rapture without having "heretic" thrown in their face.

Each of the four possible positions on the rapture come complete with their own scriptural defense. Each is convinced in his/her mind that their view is THE biblical view. That needs to be kept in mind in debates like this. If a person is convinced that their position is THE correct position, no amount of evidence to the contrary will convince them otherwise, in most cases. It is okay not to be convinced and to hold to one's position; it is not okay for someone else to throw around "heresy" charges on an issue about which there is room for disagreement without touching any major, established doctrine.

Believing in a pre-trib rapture, or any rapture theory does not touch on, or threaten any major Christian doctrine of Scritpure and does not diminish the Christian faith at any point.

[Massorite]

You pre-trib people are all alike. Whenever your false doctrine is refuted using scripture, you come back with personal insults and attacks

was there an attack there? are not YOU the one who is always on the attack? geez, listen to yourself!

"you pre trib people", just dripping with contempt and bitterness

Excuse me, but defending biblical truth is not an attack

There is no contempt or bitterness in referring to one as a pre-trib person, unless of course it is self contempt??

the venom from the rapture haters is anything but Christian

This statement is totally out of line here. If you cannot defend you position with scripture, which you cannot do, then it would just be best to say nothing.

So the below quote is not an attack?

You pre-trib people are all alike. Whenever your false doctrine is refuted using scripture, you come back with personal insults and attacks, and false accusations because you cannot defend it scripturally. I've said it before in this thread. Your pre-trib people are some of the most bitter people I have ever communicated with. It really speaks volumns.

You said that all people who believe in a pre-trib rapture are bitter. That's not even bringing in the places where you use terms like "heresy," "devilish," and "satanic" to describe a doctrinal difference that obviously bothers you. And that's all it is, a doctrinal difference. You've seen attacks in other peoples posts to you, but seem to overlook the provoking statements and insults in your own posts. The fact still exists that no one, on either side has this nailed down with 100% confidence. As I've said myriad times before, your assertion that the pre-trib position is false is simply your own personal opinion. I take it by your posts in this thread, and the grim way in which you portray those that believe in a pre-trib rapture that if we believe in this doctrine, and actually teach it that we already have one foot firmly in hell?

Calling the pre-trib a lie from the pits of hell,heresy,satanic and devilish is not an attack. It is calling it what it is. Anything that is a non biblical teaching is a false doctrinal teaching, is from the devil and one of his lies meant to confuse us.

Once I send an e-mail disputing the pre-trib concept using only scripture to hundreds/thousands of people. I just sat at my computer and day after day sending this e-mail out to Theological collages, Ministries, Seminaries, all of the high profile preachers of the pre-trib nature, Bible collages and many more. I would get on the web site of a Theological collage and send this e-mail to every staff member I could.

All of those who agreed with me send me replies full of encouragement, positive feed back and blessings.

But every single one of those who disagreed with me who sent me a reply. Sent me a reply full of insults telling me that I need help, that I need to ask for forgiveness, that I am insane, twisting scripture and full of anger and bitterness.

I agree with Toni. The pre-tribbers refuse to listen to scripture even if one puts the verses or lack of them two inches from their faces. They are self blinded and seriously deceived. And the biggest problem with those who are deceived is that they don't know they are deceived.

[Guest shiloh357]

Calling the pre-trib a lie from the pits of hell,heresy,satanic and devilish is not an attack. It is calling it what it is. Anything that is a non biblical teaching is a false doctrinal teaching, is from the devil and one of his lies meant to confuse us.

You don't have to agree with a pre-trib or any of the rapture theories, you don't have to like any of them either, but that does not warrant calling them heresies. They do not fall into the category of "heresy" just because you disagree with it.

It is not "nonbiblical" for the simple reason that pre-tribbers have their own Scriptural defense regardless of whether you possess the honesty to admit it. Each rapture theory has its own scriptural basis and to say otherwise is simply not true.

[irishcowboy]

one day, satan calls all his demons in for a conference......

he has his power point up and running and the concern is that he is loosing souls, his hatred for God is such he can not stand it when God gets even one.......

so, he puts a question to the floor......

How Can We Turn More People Away From God?

one demon raises his hand, and when given permission to speak, he says TELL EVERYONE THAT THERE IS NO HEAVEN, THAT HEAVEN IS WHAT THEY ARE LIVING ON EARTH NOW.

satan replys, yea, that is good but not quite what we need.....

pretty soon another demons has an idea....

TELL THEM THERE IS NO HELL that they can live life the way they want, anyway they want and nothing will come of it.....

again, that is good, even better then the first..... but not quite there yet.....

after a bit of discussion, a third demon raises his hand...... after permission is granted he stand, and says.....

TELL THEN THEY HAVE PLENTY OF TIME, THAT THEY DO NOT HAVE TO MAKE A CHOICE RIGHT NOW, THAT THEY CAN CHOOSE LATER......

satan ponders it for a moment, and says...... YES, THAT IS IT........ TIME, THEY HAVE ALL THE TIME IN THE WORLD......

************************8

do we really have either 3.5 years to get people to believe? or 7 years to get people to believe, depending on how a person interprets the scriptures?? is that what we want people to know? the tribulation will not be much of a time for conversion, more of a time of survival...... if a person does not have Christ before the tribulation, it will be very hard to get them to believe that Christ is the answer during, for the Holy Spirit will not be freely roaming the world as He does now, availible for all people.... He will inhabit a hand full like He did in the old testament....... people will see Christians dying for not taking the mark, and will wonder why, will not know why, and will not want to go that route, they will be concerned with feeding their family, so will be looking at what ever road is the easiest, not at which road is the right road, for them the right road is the easiest.... the road that seems to be going the way they need to go..... the way to "happiness"

should we not be concentrating our efforts on telling the world about Christ? not fighting among our selves about when Christ is coming back????? for the time is at hand, there is not time.......

mike

[Ovedya]

Don't write my points off as "semantics." That's a cop-out because you can't deal with the ramifications of your statements here. The fact remains that you are making "devilish heresies" over simple non-essential doctrines. If I were to make a comparison of the attitude which you display here I would have to say that yours is nothing short of the Roman Church which, in its Council edicts condemns all who disagree to hell.

Ovedya...

I am not about to be drawn into a discussion over your inappropriate response. The fact is, I can and have supported the catching away of the saints after the tribulation with scripture, and everything else I have said, and you have not been able to support your position; which by the way, I noticed you did not respond to my question asked of you.

Just because a doctrine happens to be popular, the biblical fact is that false doctrine is not taken lightly by the Lord, nor should it be by defenders of biblical truth, and this too I have supported using scripture.

You're just stopping short of judging the saints of God here on the boards. I'd have to guess that's not what's going on in your mind, however.

I'm not concerned at all with either position, frankly, because it's not been sufficiently shown to me that either has any potential for undermining a person's faith. What I know does undermine a person's faith is someone who uses loaded language to place a stumbling block before other believers.