rapture

[jackie d]

with all the stuff going on right now

i was wondering when u think the rapture will happen?

i just want to hear people's opinions on this

Well, I would like to believe that the rapture were to take place before the Great Tribulation but when I read revelation, and Daniel and Ezekiel, and the other books....HMMMM, let's just say I don't get the peace of mind that we will all be swooped away from this world. I do support that Jesus will come in the end fo the 7 yrs and the believers who are still living wil be "raptured". I have listened and studied and just want the truth. No itching ears please. We would all like to think that this wonderful event will rescue us from the trials and troubles of this world. I certainly would. But if you put away your left behind series and ask the Holy Spirit to teach you what this means....you will have peace no matter what. I do not find evidence to support a "rapture" before 7 years of tribulation. I have studied pre-trib, post trib, mid-trib....trib-- trib--trib.....looks like those expecting a rapture may be greatly disappointed and have to read Revelation all over and consider themselves, "Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection."

But wait....the verse before that says..."And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgement was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and the word of God, who had not worshipped the beast or his image, and had not recieved the mark on their foreheds or on their hands. And they lived and reigned for a thousand years." Revelation 20:4 other vs regarding first resurrection-your rapture is verse 5.

I know...you will pull a rabbit out of your hat and come up with the "left behind" theory-series. Good story...But I don't get the witness to it. Read the Bible and the passages and study words for yourselves. Quit letting someone do it for you.

Also, there is alot of free info that you can get online regarding the End Times....and take in to consideration that the Lord moves on Jewish Celebrations.

there's some food for thought.

vs 5-6 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has not power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. AMEN

[jackie d]

Those who are killed for their faith during the tribulation period are Christians who were luke warm or in general, not living right when Jesus returned, and end up giving their lives for their faith.

Fifth Seal: The Cry of the Martyrs

Revelation 6:9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying,

Edited October 24, 2006 by jackie d

[jackie d]

There is no contradiction concerning my statement that the ones who give their life for their testimony are lukewarm. What I mean is that they were lukewarm when Christ returned at the time of the rapture, so they were left behind. They had enough knowledge from things they had heard to understand they were in the tribulation period, and they sought the Lord. They were not lukewarm anymore.

so if this is truth that you have discovered by reading and studying scripture, then by all means point me to these scripture. I need to see the ones that aren't lukewarm taken into the heavens and the lukewarm left behind at the rapture and then see them turn completely to Christ and in turn they are martyred. You stated that you have gotten all of this information through study of scripture..please direct me to these scripture.

blessings

[jackie d]

While we are at it, how do you explain the idea that no man knows the day or hour of the Lord's return, when if there is no rapture, it has to be the second coming, and we know that will take place 7 years after the anti-Christ is revealed?

to begin with it is not 7 years after the anti christ is revealed..the anti-christ is revealed in the middle of the 7 yr tribulation period. I cannot explain the idea that no man knows the day or the hour except that we are given things to look for..Christ gave this parable, it was given to us to help us keep in mind that there are always signs to show us when certain things will happen..

Mark 13:28Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender, and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near.

29 So you also, when you see these things happening, know that it[f] is near at the doors!

30 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

God bless you Butero...as far as my agreement with abrandnewgirl I agree because as you know that is where I stand in this subject..just as I know where you stand. By the way I have read those scriptures over and over and never have I gotten that interpretation. So, in order to convince me that you are correct, I would need something more than what you have already provided.

It has been interesting and fun debating with you and as you well know we are at a stand off with this discussion..

Have a blessed evening Butero..see you in heaven when the time comes.

Edited October 24, 2006 by jackie d

[larryt]

title "rapture-when do you think?"

NEVER..

blessings

I believe the rapture could take place at any moment. Only those who are living a Godly lifestyle when Christ returns will go. Everyone else will be left to face the great tribulation period. At least, that is my opinion as to when the rapture might occur. No man knows the day or the hour.

Hi Butero,

You provoke a few questions by your reasoning.

1. What do you mean by "Godly lifestyle" and how does one know the criteria?

2. Are these Christians that are left behind or unbelievers that are not living a Godly lifestyle?

3. What do you base your beliefs on?

LT

[jackie d]

Butero said

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of

51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

One thing that is wrong with this theory about those who are left behind is the last 2 verses..there is no mistaking in my mind that those who are not ready do not have another chance because according to verse 51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his protion with the hyporcites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. This description of what will happen is about hell. If this is the case then we are actually looking at the second coming of Christ and not some dreamt up desire for a rapture of the saints prior to the judgement.

Leading up to verse 51 appears to me to be the coming of Christ, judgment and eternal destination according to judgement.

Yes we are to live a "Godly life" being ready at any moment for the coming of the Lord. I don't see anything, however, that indicates that those who are living this life will be caught up with Him and those who are not will remain until He comes again. That would mean that there are not just one appearances of Christ to take away the redeemed but 2...no sir, this is an incorrect theory. Christ will come to collect us only once. And that will be after we have seen several years of tribulation, witnessed for ourselves the physical presence of the Anti-Christ and been given a choice to serve him or God.

blessings

Edited October 24, 2006 by jackie d

[abrandnewgirl]

Butero quoted:

Matthew 24:37-44

37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the theif would come, he would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

John, we cannot teach only part of the scripture. To do so is like only telling half truth. Below are the scriptures that lead you to verses 37-44 which are important. But the ones before them are equally if not more important for this particular subject.

Matthew 24

Jesus Predicts the Destruction of the Temple

1 Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple.

2 And Jesus said to them, Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

The Signs of the Times and the End of the Age

3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?

4 And Jesus answered and said to them: Take heed that no one deceives you.

5 For many will come in My name, saying, I am the Christ, and will deceive many.

6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all[a]these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences,and earthquakes in various places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.

10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another.

11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many.

12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold.

13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

endure to the end

14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

The Great Tribulation

15 Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation,[c] spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (whoever reads, let him understand),

16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house.

18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes.

19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!

20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath.

21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elects sake those days will be shortened.

Here Christ gives an indication that the days will be shortened...He does not say that we won't endure some of them. We can only take this verse as meaning that we will see at least a portion of tribulation days..

23 Then if anyone says to you, Look, here is the Christ! or There! do not believe it.

24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

25 See, I have told you beforehand.

26 Therefore if they say to you, Look, He is in the desert! do not go out; or Look, He is in the inner rooms! do not believe it.

27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

The Coming of the Son of Man

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

I did not have to quote them all because they don't all apply to the rapture. Jesus gave his disciples the answer to this question: "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

The verses you gave are not necessary to add because Jesus starts over with a parable in verse 32. It is a new thought, still related to future events, but a new though nevertheless. I would be willing to agree that we could add verses 32 through 36 to the mix, but they don't change the meaning. If anything, verse 36 adds to my argument, because it says, "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." Again, if it is speaking of the second coming, it doesn't fit because all one would have to do is add 7 years to the day the anti-Christ is revealed to know the day and hour of the Lord's returning.

let's take these verses and look closely...

And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?

4 And Jesus answered and said to them: Take heed that no one deceives you.

In Matthew 24 Jesus is asked what shall be the sign....he gave many. He gave SIGNS.....listed them. But said not to loose our heads over all this either. That the rumors of wars would be routine history. What is interesting is how many people read into this that they are raptured away at the time of the signs or right before it all **hits** the fan. Question....how is the world going to know about not taking the mark ever? And how many really understand the 7 bowls, or the 7 signs, or the seven trumpets, the seven spectacles, or the seven sights to the consummation...? Let's not just assume that we get wisked away just then before the tribulation. You can read it either way and manage to make it sound like no one will have to make a satand and die for thier faith. These topics are interwoven and sometimes it is difficult to to determine what takes place first. But I would like to challenge not my views so much But really read and study what the Word is saying here. These verses are not given in a specific order either so keep that in mind.

And when you brought up the days of Noe, there are two ways of looking at this: Your rapure with "Left behind" theory is a quick happy ending for all believers in the " now"---But explain the one where every one who remains on earth...and those that are beheaded (these are believers In Jesus who knew not to take the mark....There will even be those who are the very elect of God will who fall into the lies and deception of a false prophet with great miracles and the goods news is---others endure to the end and then are taken. The Book of Revelation is not in order. It is compiled of many revelations-that John was given.

In Matthew 25 Jesus desires that we His people expectantly anticipate his return and even admonishes us in Matt 24:45-51 to live and be ready because we do not know the exact time. The return Of our Lord Jesus is certainly a mystery. But I can see how each side takes a stand. I used to be a pretrib-rapture believer but some things just don't add up. If you study for yourselves you will have some good questions which only God can answer and give you consolation. I used to think the pretrib-rapture was my best way of avoiding hell on earth. Now quite honestly, if you read these verses you will see....In Revelation 20 it talks about the First Resurrection---(And a thousand years reigning with the Lord,) that these who endured to the end would be Priests of God and of Christ. This is where the believers are gathered up. READ it and pray about it. We do not know the time or the hour, but we should be faithful doing his work. I am glad people are searching and reading. I am excited to be alive and see these days that were prophesied about coming to pass and alive in our life time.

He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

Amen & God Bless you as you continue to seek Him on this matter. If you died for Christ in the tribulation I pray that you would know how Blessed you are and your reward to stand firm in believing will be rewarded greatly a thousand years with HIM. Thank you for reading. God Bless you Indeed.

[abrandnewgirl]

Quite right, Hazard. And my apologies to Lawyer for God. I know from your posts, you don't get carried away with drivel....usually! Nonetheless, some of the best known teachers in Christendom today do teach this stuff as if it was the plain truth of the Bible, so one can hardly blame anybody for believing it these days. In actuality it only an interpretation and a very, very new one at that; only popularized around 1830-40 of our era. And all based on the ADDITION of the definite article 'the' to Jesus' words warning of 'great tribulation' (and we ALL know how God feels about 'adding to' or 'taking away from' His Word!).

So although I did not intend to be rude, it appears I succeeded! And for that I do offer my most abject apologies, to Lawyer for God, and to you, Hazard dear fellow, since you also took offence on his behalf (good on you, for pointing out my fax pax). At the same time, before you question MY knowledge of the Scriptures, I would put you to the same challenge. Go to the Greek originals, and see if you can find any mention at all of "THE" Great Tribulation. You will see, that as I stated, the very phrase itself is a hoax.

You see, when Jesus said that "In those days" there would be "great tribulation," the words he used simply indicate a great many perils. Colloquially, we might even translate it as 'gobs of trouble.' If the KJV translators had so translated the phrase, it is very difficult to see how imaginative and/or entrepreneurially minded people might have written a lot of cheesy 'last days' books talks about 'The Gobs of Trouble'! But the "sexier" phrase 'The Great Tribulation,' although utterly false to the original texts, could (and most assuredly DOES) sell books...AND LOTS OF THEM! I do SO wish I had written a couple of them, when I still believed their commercial hype!

So well said. AMEN.

[larryt]

title "rapture-when do you think?"

NEVER..

blessings

I believe the rapture could take place at any moment. Only those who are living a Godly lifestyle when Christ returns will go. Everyone else will be left to face the great tribulation period. At least, that is my opinion as to when the rapture might occur. No man knows the day or the hour.

Hi Butero,

You provoke a few questions by your reasoning.

1. What do you mean by "Godly lifestyle" and how does one know the criteria?

2. Are these Christians that are left behind or unbelievers that are not living a Godly lifestyle?

3. What do you base your beliefs on?

LT

Jesus warns us of the need to be watching for his return. That doesn't mean literally sitting outside staring up at the sky, but it does mean not living in sin. For instance, a person who is watching for the Lord's return would not be committing adultery, would not be going around drunk, or stealing. He would be living his life in a manner pleasing to God. That is what I mean by a Godly lifestyle. How do we know what that is? By reading the Bible and knowing what things God is displeased with.

I believe all non-Christians are left behind, as well as any Christian caught up in sin when the Lord returns. I don't believe for instance that if a man is in bed with a woman other than his wife when Jesus returns, he will go in the rapture.

What am I basing this belief on? Well for starters, Matthew 24:42-51

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

To those who are watching, the Lord's coming will not be a surprise, but to those who begin to doubt and think they have plenty of time, and begin to commit sin, his coming will catch them off guard, and they will not go in the rapture.

Hi Butero,

I think you missed the gist of my first question.

I was asking if you knew HOW MUCH SIN IN THE LIFE WAS TOO MUCH TO GO UP IN THE RAPTURE?

Assuming we are addressing the question of Christians/born again saints, is it adultery as you put it the only thing that keeps one from being raptured? How about having a picture of "Jesus" up on the wall. That would violate the 2nd command. Or what about having some stolen item in your house, or even thinking about adultery when He returns. Does being left behind mean that the Christian has lost his salvation and must regain it? And why are we not warned by Paul to make sure about our standing at His return. Paul tells us that ALL that are alive and remain at His return will be caught up to meet Him in the air.

LT

[abrandnewgirl]

There is no contradiction concerning my statement that the ones who give their life for their testimony are lukewarm. What I mean is that they were lukewarm when Christ returned at the time of the rapture, so they were left behind. They had enough knowledge from things they had heard to understand they were in the tribulation period, and they sought the Lord. They were not lukewarm anymore.

so if this is truth that you have discovered by reading and studying scripture, then by all means point me to these scripture. I need to see the ones that aren't lukewarm taken into the heavens and the lukewarm left behind at the rapture and then see them turn completely to Christ and in turn they are martyred. You stated that you have gotten all of this information through study of scripture..please direct me to these scripture.

blessings

All you have to do Jackie, is look at the scriptures I gave showing that those who were not ready were left behind when Jesus comes back. That is obviously those not ready to meet him. Then you come down to the question of who the martyrs are in Revelation. I don't have to show through scripture they are people left behind or converts, because we know that is the case because of the scriptures I already gave. There is no way you or anyone else can prove through scripture that these people are the church that is standing all along. You can claim that is your opinion, but that is all you can do. I never saw abrandnewgirl provide proof of her conclusions, yet you were willing to accept what she said because she agreed with your position there is no rapture.

While we are at it, how do you explain the idea that no man knows the day or hour of the Lord's return, when if there is no rapture, it has to be the second coming, and we know that will take place 7 years after the anti-Christ is revealed? In addition, how do you explain the conditions that exist at the time of the Lord's returning or life supposedly going on as normal, people eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage as was the case in Noe's day? The time of the second coming will be one of great wars, natural dissasters, dissease, pestilence, etc. That is nothing like the conditions Jesus mentions in Matthew.

I want to clear something up that is twisted from what I said please...

a quote from Butero [You can claim that is your opinion, but that is all you can do. I never saw abrandnewgirl provide proof of her conclusions, yet you were willing to accept what she said because she agreed with your position there is no rapture. ]

My Opinion of what the "rapture" is undefined I don't agree with the lukewarm idea that you have written about and find no evidence to support that from what I read. I shall say that I believe God will in the end God will judge us for our works as he says he will....no matter how big or small of a believer we are, even if one is a poor example...there will be a judgement day and each will be rewarded. Revelation 20:12 "And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work."