Women in the Church today

[jamie]

And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 1 Tim. 2:14

...the head of woman is man... 1 Corin. 11:3

Women are not to have authority over man.

Those are my beliefs.

If you are going to use that for an example then you need to realize that Adam was just as accountable as Eve, he just didn't run up on the serpent first. He was as willing as Eve though.

So who was really less deceived?

[st. Worm]

And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 1 Tim. 2:14

...the head of woman is man... 1 Corin. 11:3

Women are not to have authority over man. (where the teachings of God are concerned)

Those are my beliefs.

Actually man and I now have something we agree on. Women pastors is a new invention of those denominations who no longer believe what the Bible says on the subject and who also reject 2000 years of church history. The verse regarding women's silence in church is clearly referring to preaching. All you have to do is look at the consequences of churches and denominations that have begun ordaining women. All have gone theologically liberal and some now even do not profess Christ. Many are hotbeds of nothing but militant feminism. Most will soon ordain homosexuals and at least one has already.

sw

[IslandRose]

The NT church knew nothing of pulpits, professionals, or performances. There was no one designated "the preacher". Instead, there was a plurality of elders in each church, and these elders were simply the spiritually mature who demonstrated both the love of Christ and proper handling of the scriptures, who could be trusted to continue in the teachings of the apostles.

Perhaps a study on the qualifications of elders would be in order here?

[Floatingaxe]

Nero's Fiddle, you made some good points. But I'd like to take a look at this statement:

(Each of these women spoke to others of God's truth, though none of them preached.)

1-- What is the Biblical difference between preach and prophesy?

2-- Where is proof that women never spoke in God's name?

These questions point out some common misconceptions which are based on tradition instead of the Bible.

The NT church knew nothing of pulpits, professionals, or performances. There was no one designated "the preacher". Instead, there was a plurality of elders in each church, and these elders were simply the spiritually mature who demonstrated both the love of Christ and proper handling of the scriptures, who could be trusted to continue in the teachings of the apostles. Would anyone dare to say that women cannot be spiritually mature, handle the scriptures, or be trusted with the teachings of the apostles?

Paul tells us "What should you do then, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each one has a song, has a lesson, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all these things be done for the strengthening of the church." (1 Cor. 14:26 NET) So everyone participated, based not upon gender or social status or ethnic heritage, but on the gifting of the Holy Spirit. The speakers were "prophets", not "preachers" as we've become accustomed to, and there were several. And the Bible tells us "Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy" (Acts 2:18). Along with the daughters of Phillip who prophesied, we see then that women could be the speakers in a church meeting. That prophesying was speaking in God's name. There is no difference between what the male prophets would say in such meetings and what female prophets would say. And in the lists of spiritual gifts, there is never any hint that such gifts are given based upon gender.

To emphasize: prophecy is not an office but a gift.

If this is wrong I need to see scripture that contradicts what's been cited here. As for the common proof texts that are invariably appealed to, those have been covered in the linked articles in my previous post.

Excellent post, 2the Point!

[st. Worm]

The NT church knew nothing of pulpits, professionals, or performances. There was no one designated "the preacher". Instead, there was a plurality of elders in each church, and these elders were simply the spiritually mature who demonstrated both the love of Christ and proper handling of the scriptures, who could be trusted to continue in the teachings of the apostles.

Perhaps a study on the qualifications of elders would be in order here?

Gee, I thought that was a sermon Peter was preaching there in Acts.

sw

[Fiosh]

Eph 5: 22 "Wives should be subordinate to their husbands as to the Lord"

For many years I had a real hard time with verses like this one. I tried every way I could think of to make it say something else. My mother raised me as a very independent and strong-willed woman. It runs in the family.

Frankly, I could not imagine myself "submitting" to anyone but Christ.

Finally, I had to admit that Scripture says what it says: "wives submit to your husbands". I didn't like it; I didn't understand it; but I accepted it simply because God says so.

And, ya know what? My marriage blossomed.

Scripture clearly teaches that women should not be pastors. I don't understand it; I don't like it; but I accept it. God says so.

I'm sure He has His reasons.

Yes, I've met some beautiful woman pastors and I admire them for their passion for Christ and His Church. But it still don't make it right.

Peace,

Fiosh

[Fiosh]

The NT church knew nothing of pulpits, professionals, or performances. There was no one designated "the preacher". Instead, there was a plurality of elders in each church, and these elders were simply the spiritually mature who demonstrated both the love of Christ and proper handling of the scriptures, who could be trusted to continue in the teachings of the apostles.

Perhaps a study on the qualifications of elders would be in order here?

Gee, I thought that was a sermon Peter was preaching there in Acts.

sw

There are promises that Jesus makes directly to the Apostles, that are not made to the "crowds". And, there is a clear method for passing on the position of apostle ===by the laying on of hands and anointing. This is never done to a woman in the New Testament that I can recall.

[Guest man]

And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 1 Tim. 2:14

...the head of woman is man... 1 Corin. 11:3

Women are not to have authority over man.

Those are my beliefs.

If you are going to use that for an example then you need to realize that Adam was just as accountable as Eve, he just didn't run up on the serpent first. He was as willing as Eve though.

So who was really less deceived?

I understand what you're saying but...it was Eve who fell first and it was she who talked Adam into disobeying God. Adam is just as guilty as Eve but if it wasn't for Eve he wouldn't have done what he did.

Would he have done that if Eve were not around? Nobody knows. All we have to go by is what actually happened and what the bible says about women in the church.

The bible says what it says. There's no way of getting around that...there's no loopholes. When women take on the role of a church leader, they are going against the teaching's of God. They are going against His doctrine. And when they ignore simple bible truths, what else are they going to ignore?

This is what I believe to be the truth.

[larryt]

And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 1 Tim. 2:14

...the head of woman is man... 1 Corin. 11:3

Women are not to have authority over man.

Those are my beliefs.

If you are going to use that for an example then you need to realize that Adam was just as accountable as Eve, he just didn't run up on the serpent first. He was as willing as Eve though.

So who was really less deceived?

I understand what you're saying but...it was Eve who fell first and it was she who talked Adam into disobeying God. Adam is just as guilty as Eve but if it wasn't for Eve he wouldn't have done what he did.

Would he have done that if Eve were not around? Nobody knows. All we have to go by is what actually happened and what the bible says about women in the church.

The bible says what it says. There's no way of getting around that...there's no loopholes. When women take on the role of a church leader, they are going against the teaching's of God. They are going against His doctrine. And when they ignore simple bible truths, what else are they going to ignore?

This is what I believe to be the truth.

Hi man,

This is true that women preachers/pastors have problems with this verse for it flies in the face of their "ministry." On the other handwe don't need to add to the scripture. It does not say Eve "talked Adam into disobeying God." Check the Genesis account.

Ge 3:6

[Fiosh]

Scripture clearly teaches that women should not be pastors. I don't understand it; I don't like it; but I accept it. God says so.

No, scripture does not say women cannot be pastors. Please see the links I gave earlier. Pastor is a gift, not an office or official ruling position. Women are not excluded from the gifts of the Spirit.

Dear sister,

All Christians have Spiritual gifts---true. But, nowhere does the Bible specify that all gifts are available to all women and/or men. The fact that "Pastor" is a Spiritual gift, does not guarantee that it is available to women.

Consider this:

"The question at hand is not whether women are of equal value to men, nor is it whether they can minister effectively. It is, rather, the nature of their ministry in the church. More specifically, it is permissible for a woman to serve as senior pastor?

The place to begin in this, as in other biblical questions, is to ask, "What does the Bible say?" Even a cursory reading of the pertinent texts reveals three important observations: 1) there were no known women pastors in New Testament times; 2) none of the instructions regarding church order include instructions for women pastors; and 3) some texts on church order explicitly forbid women to occupy that role. Paul, in 1 Tim. 2:12, states, "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man" (NIV) . This verse is introduced by a statement that women should learn "in silence," and it is followed by the statement that "she must be silent." The word silence means being possessed by a calmness of spirit and peaceful disposition. It is set as the opposite to "teaching" and "having authority over a man." Paul does not expect that women will not or can not learn or teach (compare with Titus 2:3-5 and 2 Tim. 1:5; 3:14,15). He states that they cannot teach or have authority over men. Thus, they cannot have a pastoral position, or perform the pastoral function, for that puts them in authority over men. "

[bolding mine]

Women Pastors: What Does the Bible Teach

by Richard R. Melick, Jr., Ph.D.

May 1998

Peace,

Fiosh