Good information on 'Born Gay' Studies

[Floatingaxe]

These are the species within the Hominidae (hominid) family:

Pan troglodytes (chimpanzee)

Pan paniscus (bonobo)

Gorilla gorilla (western gorilla)

Gorilla beringei (eastern gorilla)

Pongo pygmaeus (bornean orangutan)

Pongo abelii (sumatran orangutan)

Homo sapiens (human)

In laypersons' terms, "great ape" can mean any species within Hominidae, though often an exception is made for humans, despite the greatest deviance from the rest apparently occuring in orangutans.

Silly labels! They are not definitive! God made us higher than all those animals, and a little lower than angels. We are higher as we have a spirit and we are in the image of God Himself.

[artsylady]

http://www.freetobeme.com/r_biol.htm

Here's a link that gives an overview of the studies.

Couldn't find the original.

[Fiosh]

Today, most people who claim homosexuality are simply in rebellion and are choosing it for that reason.

Then why do so many people have such a hard time coming "out of the closet" - if they ever do?

Just something I thought I'd throw in given the reference to the 10% vs. 5% etc. estimates - most of the "1 in 8" or "1 in 10" claims date back to the Kinsey numbers from the earliest mass studies of sexuality ever undertaken. These studies were groundbreaking and their importance cannot be argued (and they provided many valuable insights that have shaped how we look at sexuality today). However, current estimates of practicing homosexuals vary somewhere between 3-5% as far as I have heard. Kinsey had a "scale" he used to evaluate where someone stood between "completely homosexual" and "completely heterosexual." One of the greatest contributions that his study made was to paint sexuality as shades of gray - to view sexuality as a spectrum rather than "this" or "that." However, he took his estimate of homosexuality (I think it might have been of male homosexuality, but I'd have to double check that) from the percentage of subjects who had ever described any homosexual experience or desire rather than those who consistently practiced homosexuality. This doesn't undermine the success and importance of the project as a whole, but we need to be aware of how the study worked/how conceptions of sexuality have changed when we talk about it.

The Kinsey studies were debunked years ago. You may want to do a little research. It was found that he actually solicited pedophiles for his research and tampered with the data.

It's simple enough to check out. Google "Kinsey debunked".

[Guest LadyC]

me thinks you'd better take another look at your Bible. both testaments make it clear you can not practice homosexuality and pass yourself off as a follower of God.

you seem to forget that Jesus and God are in complete agreement because if you have "seen the Son, you have seen the Father". you also forget that Jesus didn't come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it.

sorry you don't like paul. but God obviously didn't share your opinion.

your post makes me very curious. are you a Christian? what is your view on the triune nature of God? what is your perspective on the inerrancy of the Bible?

[Floatingaxe]

Personally, I don't think that homosexuality is a choice. Why do many gay men all act and talk a certain way then if it's not natural for them? I can see on or two acting that way, but most of them? And I know many gays and lesbians who would much rather be straight than be gay.

For many homosexuals, it is a spirit of homosexuality that causes the affectations. Yes, many hate being what they have become. Who likes being demonically seized? If any of these people have the least bit of understanding of what sin is, of course they will be uncomfortable with it, unless they are total reprobates...and many are.

Jesus never mentioned anything about homosexuality; he said to love one another.

Love one another---not sexually. Who do you think Jesus is? You need an excuse to embrace perversion? Don't use Jesus or Paul as one, for you will bring condemnation down upon you.

[Guest LadyC]

LOL, oh, they hate being ridiculed for being gay so much that they advertise it and flaunt it by participating in gay parades? ok! for the record, a lot of smokers here would love to quit. they hate smoking. they hate being judged for smoking. they hate being discriminated against and ridiculed, even here at worthy. if they could get out from under that bondage without the struggle and anguish of quitting, they would. God can deliver them, but it's not very often God does it without allowing the person to grow through the suffering involved.

my husband is a drug addict. he hates it. he hates what it does to him, the affect it has on our marriage, and the judgement others place on him. but he's in bondage to it, and can't get out from under it... why? because he won't give it totally and completely to God, and trust Him to get him through the withdrawals. much like us smokers. for the record, my husband has 'been a Christian' his whole life too. he believes in the Bible, and its inerrancy, and he believes that Jesus died for his sins. but i have no idea if he's ever had a personal relationship with Jesus, which is what being a christian is all about. my husband doesn't seem to grasp the difference. just thought i'd throw that in. lots of people think they are christians because they go to church, know a lot about the Bible, etc.... but that doesn't mean they know Jesus. not saying that about you, just putting it out there to demonstrate that not all that cry Lord, Lord on judgement day will enter the kingdom of heaven.

you answered one of my questions but not both. do you believe in the triune nature of God?

most of us here are familiar with phelps's batch of wackos. surely you aren't comparing those who stand by God's word on the issue to be anything like him, are you?

so, let's set aside your disdain for paul and discuss 1 cor. 6, levitican law (chapters 18 and 20). genesis, particularly the marriage model and how it reflects the nature of God, let's discuss sodom and gommorrah (i can guess your argument, that the whole issue had nothing to do with homosexuality!) and and romans chapter 1. while we're at it, let's cover some ground on the whole broader issue of sexual sin, which is discussed in scripture extensively, and how homosexual acts are included in that category.

i'm sure this will trigger an enormous response from the members here, this discussion always does. i'll be offline for a while, and hopefully won't have too many pages to read through when i return.

and as a reminder to everyone who participates in this thread, it is the sin that we dispise, not the individuals who are stuck in the quicksand of their guilt... because none of us are innocent. and please, lets all bear in mind the difference between casting hypocritical personal judgements and righteously judging sin.

[Guest LadyC]

oh, and please, can we also include in the discussion the difference between God's kind of love (and his instruction to us to love everyone...) and erotic love? can we discuss the issue of the triune nature of God and how Jesus was the Word of God in the flesh, as much as the Bible is the word of God in print? (i ask to include those because you said Jesus never mentioned homosexuality... my point is that Jesus and God are one.... and so if God said it, Jesus meant it.)

[Floatingaxe]

me thinks you'd better take another look at your Bible. both testaments make it clear you can not practice homosexuality and pass yourself off as a follower of God.

Would love for you to cite which verses so we can discuss.

are you a Christian? what is your view on the triune nature of God? what is your perspective on the inerrancy of the Bible?

I do in fact believe that the Bible is without error. It's the way that people interpret the scripture that's the issue. Just go and youtube "Fred Phelps" and you'll see just how wrong it is. And yes, I am a Christian, I have been my whole life.

Unfortunately though, ignorance breeds intolerence.

For many homosexuals, it is a spirit of homosexuality that causes the affectations. Yes, many hate being what they have become. Who likes being demonically seized? If any of these people have the least bit of understanding of what sin is, of course they will be uncomfortable with it, unless they are total reprobates...and many are.

You're a very smart individual Floatingaxe, and we've had some good conversations in the chat room... however, with all due respect, that is a very ignorant thing to say.

I believe in the Bible. I believe that Jesus died for my sins. But even I can't say what a homosexual thinks and feels, much like anyone else. When I said that most gays and lesbians that I know (who are very wonderful people, taking me back to my love one another message from Jesus) would much rather be straight, it's true. Do you think they enjoy being ridiculed? Singled out? Chastised? Of course not, and if they could get out from under that, then they would... but it's just not who they are.

Living in Toronto, I've seen the turnout for the Gay Pride Parade. And, I've seen the outpouring of love and emotion during those times, as a prime example of humanity coming out to support one another to stop hate and prejudice. And, believe it or not, I have gay friends who love Jesus, despite who they have having sex with. Sex is a physical activity... love for Jesus is a spiritual one.

Isn't that what matters most?

You seem to confuse love with lust. Jesus commands that we love one another, but not sleep with one another! You lower the standard of love by making it fleshly. What matters most is not your love for Jesus, but putting your love for Him into action---OBEDIENCE! Otherwise, Jesus will say to you one day, "Depart from me for I never knew you."

Here it is plainly in the New Testament of Jesus Christ:

1 Corinthians 6:9

Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,

You cannot reason your way out of that.

[Joshua-777]

Well, there is a nature behind this. Lets look at Romans chapter 1.

Romans 1:18-28

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man

[artsylady]

Paulo:

I had posted this earlier and wondered what your thought were on it.

Just because we humans have extremely strong desires in certain directions, (Christian or not) doesn't mean that those desires are not harmful.

Here's an extreme example:

Has anyone ever seen the 20/20 (or 60 minutes) episode of the people who want to be amputees? I'm serious. There are people out there who have this incredible inclination to have their limbs chopped off. It's such a huge desire within them and they beleive they will be happy when they are amputees. They look at other amputees with jealousy. They'll go to extreme lengths to actually become amputees. A few have used dry ice on their legs in their car until the tissue becomes dead (they time it just so) and then they'll drive to the hospital once they know it's too late for the doctor to save their leg. Some have had a leg removed and these people really are actually happy with their new body. Some decide that they want to continue to have other limbs removed and continue the process. In fact, there was a doctor mentioned and interviewed who beleived that since this is what makes these people happy, then he felt that he should surgically remove the limbs without having to go through all of the trouble they do to eventually give doctors no choice but to amputate.

Now, this is obviously destructive behaviour but it's what these people want and these people believe that this is what brings them happiness in life.

I've also known a man who wanted to become a woman. He dressed as a woman for about 4 years, went through the necessary counselling and took the necessary medications etc. He changed his mind before surgery and now has breasts! He's now back to living as a man. He has a friend who did become a woman and regrets the decision but there's nothing that can be done at this point.

I guess I said all of that just to say this. God has given us laws that are indeed good for us. It's quite possible and even likely for humans to have strong inclinations toward something other than what God has deemed ideal,. (think pyromaniacs, cleptomaniacs, cutting, sex addicts etc, etc, etc, etc, ) but that's temptation leading us against God.

In this day and age, no one beleives pyromania, cleptomania, sex addiction, cutting etc to be 'acceptable', but on the other hand, other strong urges that also point to our spiritual destruction have now been named 'acceptable' by the majority of society. Homosexuality, trans gender issues and even amputeemania ( I made that word up) belong to the latter half, now considered acceptable by the medical community.