Getting rid of my secular music...

[apothanein kerdos]

We should not romanticize life, but we should not undervalue it. Yes, these things are great; falling in love, experiencing the joys of life, etc. But they only reason they are so great is because they are rays of hope amongst clouds of despair. The New Earth/Heaven is where these clouds are removed and we are with the giver of this hope.....and we see this hope realized.

Why would I want to imagine that this would never occur? Why would I want to imagine that I lived a life with rays of hope, only to see this hope destroyed?

[nebula]

At my grandmother's memorial service (funeral service), I danced to a song which chorus sang:

We will meet in the Golden City

In the New Jerusalem

All our pain and all our tears will be no more

We will stand with the host of Heaven

And cry, "Holy is the Lamb"

We will worship and adore evermore

George's -

Do you long for the day you see Jesus face to face and worship Him before His throne?

[RGR]

Or as the old Hank Williams gospel song says:

In this world of sorrow, I've seen trouble and woe

When I get to Glory I'll see no more

For I know my prayers have not been in vain

When I get to Glory, I'm gonna sing, sing, sing.

Sometimes I get so weary inside

Then I recall how my Jesus died

Up there I know, there'll be no pain

When I get to Glory, I'm gonna sing, sing, sing.

Up there no tears will blind my eyes

And I'll walk along by my Jesus' side

I'll meet my loved ones all once again

When I get to Glory, I'm Gonna sing, sing, sing.

CHORUS:

When I get to Glory, I'm gonna sing, sing, sing

I'm gonna let the hallelujahs ring

I'm gonna praise my blessed Saviour's name

When I get to Glory, I'm gonna sing, sing, sing

[georgesbluegirl]

look, the song isn't even saying "there ISN'T a heaven." it's just softly making its point - what i said earlier. joy would be nothing without pain. i just think that it's a well done piece of art that deserves to be appreciated for what it is trying to convey - it's not a song to make enemies over. as for me, i'd be happy if the only thing that happened after death was what was promised in william cullen bryant's "thanatopsis" - that my body would lay down in the "great sephulcre" of the earth with kings and grandmothers and heroes and sinners, a part of the world. i am a christian; i believe there's much more than that. but life is just life. every day, even the worst, is a miracle - and yeah, i've had some almost unbearably awful ones. but they all got me here. and here is exactly where i should be.

[georgesbluegirl]

and just to clarify, i don't mean "make enemies" with you, i meant in the general sense - there is nothing but love and good intention here! i would never imply anything else.

love, as always.

[RGR]

and just to clarify, i don't mean "make enemies" with you, i meant in the general sense - there is nothing but love and good intention here! i would never imply anything else.

love, as always.

Understood!

[redeemed098]

Failed Christian,

You are the most angry "worship Leader", I have ever heard...

In one of your other posts you quoted a letter to the entire forum dealing with certain issues as to why you left the church....

In response to your post, I opened MY post to you with these words.....

"FC, why is it that I get the sense that you are not telling us everything...???"

Well, FC......I was right wasnt I....! You werent telling us everything........And in this thread you have told us the rest. I now KNOW why you had so much trouble with your previous pastor.

Incidentally, I thought that posting your letter to the Pastor for all to see was a serious lack of integrity... I hope you dont handle ALL such circumstances with a similar level of integrity.

Regards,

Ben.

[nebula]

as for me, i'd be happy if the only thing that happened after death was what was promised in william cullen bryant's "thanatopsis" - that my body would lay down in the "great sephulcre" of the earth with kings and grandmothers and heroes and sinners, a part of the world. i am a christian;

I know you aren't tryi ng to make enemies, honey -

I just do not understand - to me, these two claims seem contradictory, that's all.

[georgesbluegirl]

what this comes down to is: i like to think about things. i can still be a christian and imagine, and "imagine" in that wonderfully idealistic existential way that lennon describes. that's really all there is to it. for me, at least.

[David H.]

Why are Fundamentalist Christians so fearful? This will corrupt me. That will corrupt me. Better burn it to get it off the face of the earth. I agree with George's Blueberry Girl. It's a beautiful song. I've never agreed with it from a theological standpoint; but that's a pathetic way to listen to a song anyway. "Hey, this song isn't a correct doctrinal statement."

Songs have always been much more about feelings than doctrine. But the song presents an interesting philosophical question that we should be able to enjoy, not feel we have to burn it to be spiritually safe. I guess I've never felt that spiritually weak to worry about such things.

because imagining theres no heaven is a kind of liberation - just a what if. what if all i had were the next few decades to exist, to fall in love, to learn and see? how much more would you be required to treasure life? in the end, that's all the song wants us to do - to value life as if we only had tomorrow. that is a kind of "uncomfortable" notion to begin with, i agree - but when you really embrace it, it's beautiful. i think it's absolutely humbling to value life that way - as if there was no heaven promised - as a christian. wouldn't it remind you of the phenomenal gift that life - at all - is? wouldnt you then thank God for every day?

That's beautifully said.

I am sorry. I just am not getting it.

If there is no Heaven, then Jesus lied.

I see nothing liberating in this notion.

What's so hard to get about it? What would you put into this life if this life was all you had? We've all heard of people who find they've got a year left to live and that final year becomes the only year in which they felt they ever did live because suddenly they took every minute, every conversation, every kiss, every hug, every look, as if it was the last one they might ever know. Suddenly they drank life to the fullest. Imagine we had nothing to escape to and had to make it all count right now. The song is meant to ponder, not to critically analyze the theological unreality of it all. It's not meant to be a statement about reality.

That is what keeps me going, to know that there is a righteous Judge

Sheesh, some Christians are more in love with judgment than anything. They long for judgment day when the others will get theirs. If God judged based on righteous judgment, we'd all be toast. What we have to be thankful for is that he balances righteous judgment with loving mercy. Fair, but finding mercy where it can be found, creating a path by which mercy can be offered over judgment.

I agree with Neb-if this is all there is, I don't want it!

Sad, sad, sad, again, that anyone should despise their life so much. I've had a very hard life, too. A year ago everything crumbled in bankruptcy. Some days I've felt like the sentence above. But then I think there is a lot of beauty in this life, too, and it's really pathetic if all we can think about is the next one. We miss the simple glory of this one, even while we're living it.

We will meet in the Golden City

In the New Jerusalem

All our pain and all our tears will be no more

I'm glad for heaven; but for some it becomes escapism. I think that underappreciates the simple glory that God has created in this world and in our lives.

And the antidote to escapism:

every day, even the worst, is a miracle - and yeah, i've had some almost unbearably awful ones. but they all got me here. and here is exactly where i should be.

I thank God for that perspective and pity people who can only see a song for its theological errors. How poetically dead in the head is that. Sure there are a lot of garbage songs out there that have nothing redeemable about them at all. I just don't listen to them; but getting rid of them is no big issue to me. But, for some people, I guess, along with throwing out the garbage, comes throwing out "Imagine" because of its theological errors. Are you really that weak that you're going to stumble by listening to someone's view that's different than yours or by asking a simple "what if"?

i just think that it's a well done piece of art that deserves to be appreciated for what it is trying to convey - it's not a song to make enemies over....

I praise God for people who can listen to ideas outside of their own and ponder them thoughtfully and engage with them humbly and not feel threatened and not feel the need to trash someone who believes in them. They can find the kernel of good that's in a song or a piece of art and let the chaff blow away. They don't feel threatened if the bit of truth came through a buddhist perspective because they know all truth is God's truth and that recognizing the truth doesn't mean you're going to be become a buddhist. Instead of lives based in spiritual fear, they live lives based on faith. They're free to engage with people outside their fold -- I mean engage in real relationships, not beat them up for believing the wrong thing. If a song's got nothing redeemable -- no kernel of good -- you just toss it. No big deal. I wouldn't even think of writing a post on a forum about whether or not I should do that and how. But some people want everything that goes into their ears to be pure and perfect. I guess they don't trust their own ability to discern the good from the bad, and they fear the bad. I don't want to live such a fear-based life. It's not what goes into a man that makes him impure; it's what comes out of his own heart.

Edited August 12, 2006 by David Haggith