what kind of Christian does that make me

[Openly Curious]

People will pay everything they have for good medicine when they are sick when they really need it. We run all over to be healed of the smallest ailments, yet the largest ailment, which afflicts human beings, and all of creation is death, darkness and the grave. Do we say well you doctors are fear mongering because you tell me this cancer is killing me and I should have a tumor removed to be cured, forget it I have no interest!

Christ is the great physician, and only His healing balm can cure us of the disease of eternal death. It is not fear to state the obvious that every human flesh will die and rot, why not present the only cure?

But if people feel no guilt, if they honestly don't see a need for a Savior, then nothing you say will convince them, only the Holy Spirit working through the Gospel has any power to bring people to faith. Faith itself is not some choice we intellectually analyze, it comes when Christ Himself comes to us, we can run, or we can stop running from Christ, this is the only real choice. So whatever approach we use we should be honest and look at what the pure Gospel is, and we should stick to that pure Gospel of Jesus Christ, which is a double edged sword of healing comfort to all who feel the weight of their sins and know the need for forgiveness, and the sharp sword used on the Pharisees, who thought they had no sin, in this case the sin must be pointed out, along with their true condition.

AMEN

[redeemed098]

Jesus spoke more about hell in the New Testament than any other topic.

He even said that to avoid hell you should be prepared to cut off any part of your body that causes you to sin.

Is he NOT trying to tell you to do whatever you can NOT to go there....????

Surely if Jesus spoke about Hell, then part of the gospel message INCLUDES hell. Does it not....??

After all, what good is offering a person a parachute if he is not aware of the consequences of hitting the ground withOUT one...?

Surely if he is aware of the consequence then he will find more value in the parachute and cling to it more tightly.

Dont water down the gospel to please the ears of the hearer....Its like removing the curative properties of medicine. There remains NO cure when you remove the curative properties......There remains no gospel when you remove Hell as a consequence. Why repent...??? if theres no consequence then who cares...?

It is the consequence that gets people to think..."The wages of sin is death." If they dont see themselves as sinners, they will never be ready to hear about Gods grace.

If you remove Hell from the good news of the gospel of Christ, you have in essence removed MOST of Christs teachings...

Something to think about..

Regards,

Ben.

[Smalcald]

Dood are you looking for the numerous passages that Christ Himself speaks of hell?

I do think we don't have a clear picture of hell nor do we have a clear picture of heaven for that matter. Some scripture shows hell as eternal torment, some show hell as simply eternal death, and some show it as darkness and blackness forever. So certainly we can make different claims about what hell is, but we know that it is not a place anybody wants to be.

The atheists of course believe in a universal hell, as all rot and die eternally with no hope. So they would all accept the eternal death vision of hell. But they would say that this is universal, that all go to hell. I don't understand why they are not considered fear mongers, I mean they are telling me that I have no hope will rot in the grave and all of humanity will be burned up and gone at some point along with our world. Now the bible says this also, except the bible tells us that there is a New World, a New Heaven, a new body for us all. So really who is the fear monger?

We have hope, and that is through Christ, outside of that there is no hope.

[Smalcald]

Well I would tend to agree that just trying to scare someone is not very effective, and actually is not the Gospel anyway. What is ironic is that if you don't have faith, you won't be scared in the first place, so fear would only really have an impact on someone who already believes at some level, but would have no impact on someone who thinks it is all bunk. For example, I have absolutely no fear of the Muslim hell, to me it is a joke a fairy tail, as is their strange sexualized heaven with some sort of sex orgy with virgins, I mean that does not interest me in the first place even as a sinful human. Now I am sure to someone who does not have any faith in Christ or even the beginnings of faith, the hell that we speak of is thought of in the same way.

I do think there is however a point that speaking of death, speaking of our true condition before God is important and can be effective, looking at Christ for what He is and that is a rescue, the ultimate Doctor, the ultimate answer to what ails us in so many different ways. But to understand what light is, you must have an understanding of darkness or at least an awareness of darkness.

My personal opinion is that we don't need to scare most people, most people who think about things very deeply or at all realistically are already afraid and with good reason.

[redeemed098]

In Regards to redeemed098, and Smalcald:

I'm not debating for or against the existance of hell. I am standing up against the idea that you can use the fearful nature of the subject of hell in a attempt to get a person into submitance to god, or use fear to bring about good.

I am saying it is not possible. I am saying you have to use good to bring about good. Not fear. In my previous 2 replies in this thread I have provided the resources that people can use to examine what I am talking about it. I know this to be factual.

I'll give a example of how fear is a controlling mechanism.

In the vietnam war. Naplam was extensively used. For 2 reasons. One was clearing shrub for landing zones. The other was so bad that lets say when you heard a american fighter jet coming. You ran the other way. From a military point of view on the American side this was very good news. For the vietnamesse, This was terror. Tell me when naplam is coming your way. Do you have a choice? Logically yes. You can stay and take the fire. Realisticly do you have a choice? No you don't you have to run. Naplam = control. That is why it was used so much. I can go one step further into proof of this. Brain scans show altered brain waves. You can google that too. So when in a state of fear, Survival mode kicks, brain chemicals change, Adrenaline increases the ability to choose option B, that being Naplam or Hell is competely disregarded. The ability to actually choose to goto hell is actually removed from the equation all together.

This is why I'm saying you cannot use fear to bring about good. Hell is fear. This is where my claim of fear mongering came from.

OK dood lets do it YOUR way...

Lets NOT tell people that jail awaits those who break the Law.....Lets just let them find out for themsleves ....!!!!

Is It NOT the consequence of breaking the Law that causes you to obey it.....???? If your answer to that is NO..! Then I have a question for you...

Why arent you in jail....??? You are not in jail because you have CHOSEN to obey the Laws that will keep you OUT of jail.

Preaching the gospel withOUT informing people of the consequence of ignoring it, is like telling them that a policeman will come to your door, cuff you and throw you in jail without even telling you WHY.....? You have left them with this false view of who God IS and his desire to see perfect JUSTICE...

There is absolutely NO kind way to tell a person they are a sinner in need of salvation because no matter HOW you say it, they dont want to hear it. They already believe they are too "good" to be damned. All you are doing in allowing them to think this is perpetuating the circumstance. They are NOT good and they need to see this before they can be ready to hear about Gods grace. What are they going to repent of if they always see themselves as "good"...??

Jesus himself said that he came ONLY for the sinner.... You ought to be doing your best to show them what sin IS....With grace of course...!!

They will NEVER repent if they do not see that they have sinned and are in need of Gods forgiveness...

Hell is a vital part of the message of the gospel of Christ.....Who on earth would give it a second thought if the consequence were any LESS than the prospect of Hell..???

Hell is what causes the ears to LISTEN......It is what causes the GREATEST conviction...Why do you think they oppose it so much....It frightens them and so it SHOULD...

It is supposed to get their ATTENTION...!!! and it DOES....! That is why they HATE it...It is Truth...! It is an extreme statement with extreme consequences that lists eternity as the duration of this consequence...If it were anything LESS, who would listen..?? I ask you..!!

People Lie when they say that they have no choice....They dont only have one choice, they have TWO...You can believe or NOT believe..

Regards,

Ben.

[Openly Curious]

Jesus is our Great Physcian I'll trust his judgment. It is not I who is promoting any kind of fear. We are to preach what is in the word in love. Now if that preaching promotes or causing someone to swiqqle and turn in their seats cause they are not prepared for eternity then it is God who is dealing with their hearts and not I nor the preacher.

Now as far as hell is concerned you prove that it doesn't exist. You can't no more than I can prove it does exist. It is a matter of faith as to what is in the bible is it true or not true.

There are healthy fears that saves one from harms way if heeded unto. So the fear of the Lord is a healthy fear not the way you promote it to be.

If I should listen to your words the effects would be I would not share the message of the gospel with others you would have me to believe their is not a hell at all nor everlasting punishment. You would use your fear mongering tactics to silence me into submission to your mindset. Then the wicked wouldn't be warned of eternal punishment if they do not turn from their wicked way.

I stand by what I said in this regards to obey God is better than to obey man. For God's wisdom is higher than man's wisdom and he knows what he is doing within the affairs of this life.

I wonder what kind of doctrine do you hold out to the lost I mean what are they to be saved from if there is no hell like you have said does not exist. I am afraid you are in serious error and will have blood on your hands one day if you do not try to turn a sinner from the error of their ways.

OC

Unbelievable, In the face of being provided with more than enough factual evidence You go on to spread propraganda. Here your telling me and others they are going to be torture and then go on to say

[Openly Curious]

Dood

Well now seeing you are the expert here I am just "Curious" what you believe about the "Fear" of the Lord that you as a Christian is suppose to have.

Also you said in one post that hell did not exist and you said in another post that you wasn't denying it's existence so I am just "Curious" which is with you.

OC

With the first line in your reply with the double qoutation Thats a nice open ended statement poised as a question. I have no idea what makes you think I'd be dumb enough to not see the ulterior motive in the post. So I won't bother to answer it.

As for the second line in the post. Re-read my post's in context and you'll notice that. The usage of word Hell in the one post was used as a Noun. In the other post it was used as a verb. So re-reading in context properly instead of chopping up my post into one liners will actually answer the question for you.

dood

that is a nice way to bow out of what is being posed to you here and they are legitimate questions. don't play the smarter than that card I already gave you the benefit of the doubt you keep telling me you have all the evidence so why is it you can't answer about what you think about the "Fear" of the Lord that we are suppose to have as Christians.

OC

[redeemed098]

OK dood lets do it YOUR way...

Lets NOT tell people that jail awaits those who break the Law.....Lets just let them find out for themsleves ....!!!!

Is It NOT the consequence of breaking the Law that causes you to obey it.....???? If your answer to that is NO..! Then I have a question for you...

Why arent you in jail....??? You are not in jail because you have CHOSEN to obey the Laws that will keep you OUT of jail.

Preaching the gospel withOUT informing people of the consequence of ignoring it, is like telling them that a policeman will come to your door, cuff you and throw you in jail without even telling you WHY.....? You have left them with this false view of who God IS and his desire to see perfect JUSTICE...

There is absolutely NO kind way to tell a person they are a sinner in need of salvation because no matter HOW you say it, they dont want to hear it. They already believe they are too "good" to be damned. All you are doing in allowing them to think this is perpetuating the circumstance. They are NOT good and they need to see this before they can be ready to hear about Gods grace. What are they going to repent of if they always see themselves as "good"...??

Jesus himself said that he came ONLY for the sinner.... You ought to be doing your best to show them what sin IS....With grace of course...!!

They will NEVER repent if they do not see that they have sinned and are in need of Gods forgiveness...

Hell is a vital part of the message of the gospel of Christ.....Who on earth would give it a second thought if the consequence were any LESS than the prospect of Hell..???

Hell is what causes the ears to LISTEN......It is what causes the GREATEST conviction...Why do you think they oppose it so much....It frightens them and so it SHOULD...

It is supposed to get their ATTENTION...!!! and it DOES....! That is why they HATE it...It is Truth...! It is an extreme statement with extreme consequences that lists eternity as the duration of this consequence...If it were anything LESS, who would listen..?? I ask you..!!

People Lie when they say that they have no choice....They dont only have one choice, they have TWO...You can believe or NOT believe..

Regards,

Ben.

Ben what do you do when you catch a child or teenager stealing? Threaten their lives with hellfire/toss them in jail or tell them stealing is wrong and because it hurts other people and make them apologise?. You educate them on why it's wrong You Don't Threaten people. you threaten me with hell fire I will throw you out of my house. But if you choose to educate me on the why it's right and wrong you are welcome to stay. That's the problem with hellfire. People who use it Assume that the one they are saving knows better. They don't know better. You have to educate, teach people. Then when you educate them they'll stop doing the wrongs. Look into muslim Extremism. It's based on the same rational. The threat of death and torture.

No non believers do not believe they are to good to be tossed in hell. Myself I do not believe this either. Please do not assume things to be true that isn't.

Your reaction to hellfire is the evidence in itself dood......If you felt the need to throw me out of your house then so be it..And at sometime in the future you will think about that man whom you cast out of your house and realise that he was not prepared to compromise the message just so you might like the taste a little better. The gospel is not something you serve up according to taste dood. Its the Truth. It isnt supposed to be appetising or attractive...Its the mirror that reflects the state of your own soul before a Holy and righteous God.Your response to Hellfire is the reponse to Gods Holiness and demand for perfect justice in a sinfilled world of which YOU are a part..Im not going to water down a message just to make you feel good. Im not interested in whether or not you LIKE the message. You arent supposed to. But it WILL set you free.

You only take this response because when someone tries to tell you that you are a sinner and unless you repent youll perish, you take it personally and pretend to be offended. I dont care if it offends you..I want you to be saved.. Think of ME what you will, Im more interested in the salvation of your soul and seeing you in Gods kingdom than whether or not you LIKE ME> Whats to like about the revelation that youre a sinner....???? Theres no kind way to tell someone theyre a sinner dood.....Let me know if you find one....!!!

Im not suggesting that you yell at people and judge them. Only Jesus will judge at the appointed time...Im only going to show you what sin IS and let your own conscience be your judge. Hell is very real dood. It is not an imaginary place.."Unless a man repents he shall perish." Jesus said that himself. Should I share anything LESS than truth just to satisfy your own desire to FEEL good...NO..!! I dont WANT you to feel good..I want you to REPENT and be SAVED..

In reference to the child who steals.....You are not a child. One who doesnt KNOW any better is a whole lot different to one who DOES yet chooses to reject anyway..

Regards,

Ben.

[shepherdsgrace]

There truly is such a thing as the Fear of God. That is when we realize that He does what He says He will do. Therefore we have to line up with his ways so that we can have the enjoyment of who He is. The fear of God is healthy and has eternal rewards. It has not passed off the scene. We are told in Acts 5 that great fear seized the church under Peter's ministry. It was a true realization of who God is and what He can do.

There is the minister that goes overboard and uses fear techniques. I think we all know that. That is manipulative and controlling. It is not right.

But that does not cancel out the truth of the Fear of God. And it does not, of course, cancel out the reality of hell which is to be taught just like the other truths in the word.

It seems to me that the discussion is too wide and broad. Dood seems to be against fear tactics and manipulation and above all control tactics. Well, I am too. I hate control tactics wherever I see them and however they are displayed. The church today is full of them.

But I am not against teaching the truth so that people will have a choice. And that truth includes the realization of punishment. There truly are many people that understanding the reality of punishment is the only truth that will get them started through the door.

Blessings.......

[Smalcald]

I don't really buy that Dood, as far as hell being removed from the bible. The concept of hell is solidly in scripture, the word may be wrong, but the concept is there.

Also I think we should not mix up our picture images with what scripture actually says, and indeed scripture does not paint a perfectly clear picture of hell, I would agree with that.

For example I find passages which do indeed support the concept of hell as simply eternal death and nothingness. To me hell is self-evident.