Islam a Religion of Peace?

[ted]

Amen!

t.

[TheProcess]

I think that there are very few Christians who have read more than a few words of Luther, even less of Calvin, and probably none at all of Zwingli, Melancthon, etc.

Well I see Luther/Calvin cited as authorities in Christian writing, so I guess some people must be reading them. And obviously if they are citing them as authorities then they are regarded as Christian.

the Scripture is completely uncompromising about anti-semitism, at a fundamental level. The racialist mature Christian simply does not exist.

'Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.' Col 3:11 NIV

(Scythians were commonly thought of as wild persons not much better than animals. If they are 'in', everybody is.)

You seem to be thinking of anti-Semitism in the racial sense? With Christian anti-Semitism, it has been against the Jews because of the religion. The verse you cited is talking about those that have accepted the Christian religion, it isn't really relevant. As I said, there are verses in the New Testament that could encourage anti-Semitism.

Edited August 23, 2006 by TheProcess

[TheProcess]

Some Muslims will make up anything they can to try and explain away dodgy parts of the Quran, and some Christians will make up anything they can to try and explain away dodgy parts of the Bible.

And some nonbelievers will make up anything they can try to not accept Jesus at His Words.

Funny how it all comes around, huh?

t.

I happen to think that the "dodgy" parts of the Bible are a good reason not to accept Christianity. I can't see anything wrong with using them as an argument against the existence of the Bible God.

[Floatingaxe]

Dodgy? What's dodgy in the Word of God?

[ted]

Some Muslims will make up anything they can to try and explain away dodgy parts of the Quran, and some Christians will make up anything they can to try and explain away dodgy parts of the Bible.

And some nonbelievers will make up anything they can try to not accept Jesus at His Words.

Funny how it all comes around, huh?

t.

I happen to think that the "dodgy" parts of the Bible are a good reason not to accept Christianity. I can't see anything wrong with using them as an argument against the existence of the Bible God.

Well, as much as I would like you to reconsider that decision, I hope that you would have more to hold onto on the day you meet Jesus on the Seat.

Either way, the choice is yours and I won't stand in your way.

Have a great day!

t.

[pointer]

I think that there are very few Christians who have read more than a few words of Luther, even less of Calvin, and probably none at all of Zwingli, Melancthon, etc.

Well I see Luther/Calvin cited as authorities in Christian writing

That is anomalous. Luther, like all the Reformers, would have said that he had no authority of himself. 'Sola Scriptura', remember.

Apart from the Bible, Christians read books by evangelicals, particularly modern ones, from the 19th century onwards. It should be realised that evangelicalism arose well after the Reformation, as result of dissatisfaction with Lutheranism, with the likes of Wesley. There is a distinct difference between the two categories that many do not appreciate.

the Scripture is completely uncompromising about anti-semitism, at a fundamental level. The racialist mature Christian simply does not exist.

'Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.' Col 3:11 NIV

(Scythians were commonly thought of as wild persons not much better than animals. If they are 'in', everybody is.)

You seem to be thinking of anti-Semitism in the racial sense? With Christian anti-Semitism, it has been against the Jews because of the religion.

There is no such thing as Christian anti-semitism, for any reason. It is nonsensical for Christians to blame Jews for their religion, let alone curse them, because each and every person who is not a Christian is a potential Christian, and is to be treated as such, with unfailing kindness. Even Jews who persecute Christians are to be loved- in obedience to Christ's command, of course. The verse is relevant because once people become Christians there is no distinction between them regarding their personal value, and therefore their potential value is identical also.

As I said, there are verses in the New Testament that could encourage anti-Semitism.

Alleging it is not enough, though. To allege twice without evidence creates suspicion that the evidence does not exist.

[ted]

As I said, there are verses in the New Testament that could encourage anti-Semitism.

Alleging it is not enough, though. To allege twice without evidence creates suspicion that the evidence does not exist.

Yeah, I don't quite get that one either, pointer.

I wonder which verses this person is looking at to allege anti-semitism in the Bible?

t.

[ayin jade]

You seem to be thinking of anti-Semitism in the racial sense? With Christian anti-Semitism, it has been against the Jews because of the religion. The verse you cited is talking about those that have accepted the Christian religion, it isn't really relevant. As I said, there are verses in the New Testament that could encourage anti-Semitism.

This chapter denies your assertion.

Romans 11

1 I say then, Did not God put away His people? Let it not be said ! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2 God did not thrust out His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture said in Elijah, how he pleaded with God against Israel, saying,

3 "Lord, they killed Your prophets and dug down Your altars, and I am left alone, and they seek my life."

4 But what does the Divine answer say to him? "I have reserved to Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal."

5 Even so then, also in this present time a remnant according to the election of grace has come into being.

6 But if by grace, then it is no more of works; otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it is of works, then it is no more of grace; otherwise work is no more work.

7 What then? Israel has not obtained that which it seeks, but the election obtained it , and the rest were hardened

8 even as it is written, "God gave to them a spirit of slumber, eyes not seeing, and ears not hearing" until this day.

9 And David said, "Let their table become for a snare and a trap and a stumbling block and a recompense to them.

10 Let their eyes be darkened so that they may not see, and their back always bowing."

11 I say then, Did they not stumble that they fall? Let it not be! But by their slipping away came salvation to the nations, to provoke them to jealousy.

12 But if their slipping away is the riches of the world, and their default is the riches of the nations, how much more their fullness?

13 For I speak to you, the nations; since I am the apostle of the nations, I glorify my ministry;

14 if by any means I may provoke those who are my flesh to jealousy, and might save some of them.

15 For if their casting away is the reconciling of the world, what is the reception except life from the dead?

16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy ; and if the root is holy, also the branches.

17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and became a sharer of the root and the fatness of the olive tree with them,

18 do not boast against the branches. But if you boast, it is not you that bears the root, but the root bears you.

19 You will say then, The branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.

20 Well, because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be high-minded, but fear.

21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, fear lest He also may not spare you either!

22 Behold then the kindness, and the severity of God; on those having fallen, severity; but on you, kindness, if you continue in the kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

23 And those also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in. For God is able to graft them in again.

24 For if you were cut out of the natural wild olive tree , and were grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree ; how much more these being according to nature will be grafted into their own olive-tree?

25 For I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, lest you should be wise within yourselves; that blindness in part has happened to Israel, until the fullness of the nations has comes in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved; as it is written, "There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob.

27 For this is My covenant with them, when I have taken away their sins."

28 Indeed as regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes. But as regards the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

29 For the free gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

30 For as you also then disbelieved God, but now have been shown mercy through their disbelief,

31 even so these also have not believed now, so that through your mercy they may also obtain mercy.

32 For God has shut up all in unbelief, so that He might show mercy to all.

33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments, and His ways past finding out!

34 For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor?

35 Or who first gave to Him, and it will be repaid to him?

36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things; to Him be glory forever! Amen.

[artsylady]

I don't care about what Luther or Calvin or Falwell or Swaggart says about anything really. I care only about what the Bible says and if you look at the Crusades, it's obvious that they were acting contrary to scripture, (which is probably why they outlawed the reading of the scriptures by commoners at the time.)

Chrisitianity is clearly all about peace. You are to turn the other cheek if someone strikes you, forgive 70 times 7, pray and love your enemies. How could it be any more peaceful?

The Koran, however, promotes violence in many ways. If it was so obvious that Islam was for peace, then why are so many of the terrorists interpretting it incorrectly? I'll tell you why. They are not interpretting it incorrectly. There are many verses that tell Muslims to kill. As well, it's okay to hit your wife according to Mohammed's own words? What about female genital mutilation, also condoned by Mohammed in the Haddith? I am trying to figure out what is peaceful about it and why it's promoted as a religion of peace when it seems exactly the opposite of that. And why do athiests defend it so? Very puzzling.

[secondeve]

Chrisitianity is clearly all about peace. You are to turn the other cheek if someone strikes you, forgive 70 times 7, pray and love your enemies. How could it be any more peaceful?

The Koran, however, promotes violence in many ways. If it was so obvious that Islam was for peace, then why are so many of the terrorists interpretting it incorrectly? I'll tell you why. They are not interpretting it incorrectly. There are many verses that tell Muslims to kill. As well, it's okay to hit your wife according to Mohammed's own words? What about female genital mutilation, also condoned by Mohammed in the Haddith? I am trying to figure out what is peaceful about it and why it's promoted as a religion of peace when it seems exactly the opposite of that. And why do athiests defend it so? Very puzzling.

This is an appalling double standard. You mention that the Crusades was obviously the result of a misinterpretation of the Bible, because you are familiar with Christianity and know what everything means - to you - in context. In the very next breath, however, you say that the Qu'ran is being interpreted incorrectly anbut that it's a violent book anyway. Which it is. But so is the Bible. You cannot take a casual browse through the Old Testament and tell me that killing the firstborn children of the Egyptians, or the rape and murder of the concubine, aren't acts of violence. The point being, the whole issue hinges on interpretation.

I'm an athiest. I study Islam and the Middle East, as well as Judaism, the Bible and the Middle Ages. I "defend" Islam, not because I condone it, believe it or think that terrorists are marvellous, but because of the intense hypocricy of the double standard Christians apply to it. It is OK for modern Christians to say that the Crusaders weren't real Christians, and thereby distance what they believe from what was supposedly done in the same of it; yet it is not similarly OK for average, everyday Muslims to say that Islamic terrorists aren't real Muslims. No; in their case, the Qu'ran is a brutish book which naturally lends itself to violence and killing. The fact that similar bloody-minded interpretations of the Bible have led to massacres, wars and torture throughout history seems irrelevant: "Oh, but those people were wrong, ignoring the peaceful parts for the guts n' thunder." Hah! Those same people would probably say that the pacifists are unChristian, Bible-hating apologists, bad eggs the lot of you. Who does that leave for the rest of us to trust?

As I said, I'm not religious. I think, by and large, that religion has caused more and bloodier wars than anything else in the history of humanity. I don't think that all Christians are raving Crusader-type loonies, any more than I think that all Muslims are bomb-hungry kamikazes of terror. I do think that both types exist, have existed and will continue to exist for as long as the Qu'ran and the Bible endure. Until someone comes up with God or Allah's Cliff Notes with the definitive interpretaion of either book, I'm going to stick to my belief, which is this: up until the key tenents of either religion are broken by "believers," all acts committed in the name of that religion are the result of legitimate religious interpretation. Which means that, yes, the Crusaders are Christian and the terrorists are Muslim. They had radical, violent views, but found enough in the Bible or Qu'ran to give them a spiritual backing. Nobody has the "definitive" Christianity next to which the Crusaders are proven unChristian; you have only your own interpretations - unless God has descended with a list of specific annotations, and I've not been informed of it. Ditto for the Muslims.

So yes. Go on and complain about how violent everyone else is, while simultaneously declaring that every brutal act ever committed in the name of Christianity wasn't backed up by the Bible at all, even though almost all of them, by varying forms of interpretation, warped or otherwise, were. Continue narrowing the "real" followers of your religion down to those who play nice with the other kids, even if the bullies wear crosses, too. Eventually, you'll end up with a membership of one: Jesus, because according to Christian doctrine, everyone else is a sinner, and as all sins are equal, it makes no sense that you should cast the misguided but pious Crusader from your ranks, but not the devout theif. Own up to your own history. Whether you like it or not, the skeletons fell out of the closet years ago; all you're doing now is trying to stuff them back under the bed, drag them over to the neighbour's house or create a diversion by yelling and pointing at the people across the way who are, (the violent, unscrupulous devils!) doing exactly the same thing as you. It's giving the rest of us a headache, if nothing else.

Edited August 28, 2006 by secondeve