Creation Account

[apothanein kerdos]

what if it was proven that we evolved

The glad truth is scientists are defecting the "Darwinian Evolution" camp. Findings in Astro Physics and Genetics are simply not complying wih the theory of Evolution. As science progresses, it is not closing the gaps in "Darwinian Evolution," it is opening them wider.

Most followers of Darwin do not know that he referred to a or the "Creator" six times in "Origin of the Species." Notice the capital letter in the word "Creator."

Darwins own book was crediting a "Creator" for guiding the evolution that his theoy was describing.

I have no fear whatsoever that "Darwinian evolution," as it is being taught today will ever be proven.

This doesn't mean they're becoming 7 day creationists either.

I don't believe that the 6 days were literal because it doesn't fit with what we know of how Hebrews viewed time (we view it chronologically, they didn't). Thus, it doesn't make sense why this should be interpreted under a mindset that did not exist. Likewise, there is enough evidence to show that the earth is billions of years old...couple with with the fact Genesis 1 and 2 are written in a poetic form that refers to purpose and not necessarily time passed, it's hard for me to accept a literal 7 day creation.

Keep in mind that Darwinian evolution teaches we came about through natural selection, chance mutations, and are ultimately purposeless, being led on a blind creation course. Evolution, removed from the Darwinian spectrum, merely refers to the change of species over time, or the progression of a species...this does not rule out God and in fact requires God to be there, every step of the way.

Honestly, when you look at Genesis as an account of billions of years, it brings more appreciation to what is occuring. For instance, you find that man's act of sin caused the world to be a place of death and destruction prior to him ever inhereting it...it shows the true effects of the fall and the real need for redemption.

[MrsSealedEternal]

Hi hr.jr,

It was the first day, the form, gravity (well gravity to a certain extent had to hold together the elements that made up the form) and the rotation of the earth upon its axis, took place all in the first day...so if the planet was rotating, which it was, it would see both night and day because God did say..."Let there be light" and it was so.

So how did God divide the day from the night? by creating gravity and the law of conservation of angular momentum.

Not a theological problem at all.

Without the gravity of the Sun to influence the Earth?

That really is screwing up the laws of physics.

Well since this is during the tiem that God was actively controlling and creating the world, I don't see a problem with this, the law of physics is what He created to keep things going the way He'd made them in the first place. I just don't want to try to get too scientific with this who thing because God created everything from his spoken word. I doubt we'd ever find the formula for that cause that would give us "godlike" power and why would God allow his creation to find that after the fall?

Well, since the poster I was responding to had tried to reconcile hr. jr.'s proposition with physical laws - I was simply pointing out the greater hole he was creating with his explanation. There is absolutely nothing about Genesis 1 that makes sense scientifically as we know science. A planet without a sun makes no sense. You know - solar system?

So, to introduce scientific laws to explain day and night without a sun . . . . . . just makes things worse.

My apologies if that sounds harsh, but that's the only way I know how to put it.

Amen billie why not set our minds on things above instead of dwelling on something we know was divine and all powerful design by God. And it did happen in a way our human minds cannot even begin to conceive. I mean if you really think about it, it's way beyond my comprehension at least how He did. That is one of the mysteries we will find out one day

That's why I reconcile it by regarding Gen. 1 as a prophetic account of creation. I don't know if you've seen it, but there was a study done previously trying to understand Gen. 1 that way. It brought a whole new meaning and purpose to the account that was rather fascination!

Hi Neb...Is it the one Shiloh357 did, as I thought that was a fascinating study, too? If you could post a link, it would be helpful.

I don't know exactly how the light and darkness worked on the first day, but I believe if God said it, it would happen, irregardless if I understood the mechanics of it or not or could explain it scientifically. Personally, I am comfortable with believing that it was evening and morning without the luminaries, the first day, just as much as I am with believing in the possibility of the many other events that occured in the scriptural accounts that I do not know the exact mechanics of or can use scientific laws to explain, such as the virgin Mary being with child, but that does not take away from me reading that this is what occured. I think the Genesis account has spiritual and prophetic aspects to it, but that it also explains much of what I see manifest in the physical realm, so I read some of these accounts as sometimes being a mixture of these aspects. I understand it to be that God created a spirtual and physical realm and that the two are interrelated to eachother, but there is still so much that we do not know how to explain in scientific terms. The rebuke of God to Job is a good example of where our limited perspective lies in comparison to God's and it is humbling to me. I look very forward to seeing the new heaven and new earth someday, as we may recieve answers to these many questions and controversies that lie in what we do not understand or know now.

Job 38:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind and said,

Job 38:2 "Who is this that darkens counsel By words without knowledge?

Job 38:3 "Now gird up your loins like a man, And I will ask you, and you instruct Me!

Job 38:4 "Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding,

Job 42:1 Then Job answered the LORD and said,

Job 42:2 "I know that You can do all things, And that no purpose of Yours can be thwarted.

Job 42:3 'Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?' "Therefore I have declared that which I did not understand, Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know."

Job 42:4 'Hear, now, and I will speak; I will ask You, and You instruct me.'

Job 42:5 "I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear; But now my eye sees You;

Job 42:6 Therefore I retract, And I repent in dust and ashes."

God Bless with much Agape,

[nebula]

Hi Neb...Is it the one Shiloh357 did, as I thought that was a fascinating study, too? If you could post a link, it would be helpful.

Yes it was.

And here it is

[Kabowd]

I think it's good to discuss how creation might've occurred, but personally...I think Christians may get too wrapped up in it. Let me explain. A few generations ago, when the majority of our culture had a 'christian base' (i.e understood foundational Christian truths, such as the fact that God created the world)...it might've been beneficial to devote ministries, websites and books to discussing how God may have done it. But in our current culture, it's no longer a given that God is the Creator. Naturalism is the prevalent philosophy, evolution is the widely accepted belief of how the world and human life came about.

So, in my opinion, it's sort of like Paul's example at Mars Hill. He started with the point of creation, with God as Creator because he had to establish that first. This is where I think we need to focus in our society now. It's not that I think it's wrong to discuss how God may have done it...I think it's fine to an extent. But I've seen believers ridicule and attack other believers based soley on their belief of the creation account. That's ridiculous. What message does that send to the world?

I say let's focus on the fact that God did it and the evidence that supports He did, instead of arguing about how it may have happened. But that's just my opinion

[cjrose]

I think it's good to discuss how creation might've occurred, but personally...I think Christians may get too wrapped up in it. Let me explain. A few generations ago, when the majority of our culture had a 'christian base' (i.e understood foundational Christian truths, such as the fact that God created the world)...it might've been beneficial to devote ministries, websites and books to discussing how God may have done it. But in our current culture, it's no longer a given that God is the Creator. Naturalism is the prevalent philosophy, evolution is the widely accepted belief of how the world and human life came about.

So, in my opinion, it's sort of like Paul's example at Mars Hill. He started with the point of creation, with God as Creator because he had to establish that first. This is where I think we need to focus in our society now. It's not that I think it's wrong to discuss how God may have done it...I think it's fine to an extent. But I've seen believers ridicule and attack other believers based soley on their belief of the creation account. That's ridiculous. What message does that send to the world?

I say let's focus on the fact that God did it and the evidence that supports He did, instead of arguing about how it may have happened. But that's just my opinion

There are a few of us who have said the same thing. Not that we don't appreciate God's works and in fact it is a fsscinating subject but I feel that what has been said is all we need to know. I would like to now focus on the fact that Jesus had the power to heal with a touch or a thought. Now that is something so mind blowing and yet I believe. And it's awesome to be a believer.

[apothanein kerdos]

As to your aserting that animals could not die before man sinned, What scripture do you base that on? That argument is the last ditch defense of a "young earth" creationist. It gets ripped to shreds every time it is used. Most good "young earth" creationists have shelved that argument.

Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Ro 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time [are] not worthy [to be compared] with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Re 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Here we see that death entered with the occurrence of sin. In the second passage the creature is waiting for the deliverance from the bondage of corruption due to sin. That will happen when sin is completely done away with at the end.

I don't walk by sight but by faith. If what my eyes see contradicts the Word of God that which I see is WRONG!

LT

The passage you just used does not prove that point. I knew it probably would be quoted. You hold "he" was Adam. I hold "he" was Satan. In verse 19, the creature is awaiting the advent or arrival of man. The creature was already subject to corrutpion. The creature wil be free from the bondage of corruption when Satan is bound in Hell. As to REV. 20:14 . It further proves what I just said. Death and Hades will be thrown into the lake of Fire. When Satan is cast to the lake of fire, death is removed from the Earth.

Adams sin brought death to human beings, death was already in operation in the animal and plant kingdom.

Actually, it brought death to all life, this is why all life awaits redemption.

I would point to this article that takes a fundamentalist view of how to combine the view of an old earth with death entering the world. To summarize it, God views time in purpose, and thus Adam's sin caused the effects of the fall to take place prior to him doing it at a point in space and time. The effects preceeded Adam's fall.

[larryt]

As to your aserting that animals could not die before man sinned, What scripture do you base that on? That argument is the last ditch defense of a "young earth" creationist. It gets ripped to shreds every time it is used. Most good "young earth" creationists have shelved that argument.

Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Ro 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time [are] not worthy [to be compared] with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Re 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Here we see that death entered with the occurrence of sin. In the second passage the creature is waiting for the deliverance from the bondage of corruption due to sin. That will happen when sin is completely done away with at the end.

I don't walk by sight but by faith. If what my eyes see contradicts the Word of God that which I see is WRONG!

LT

The passage you just used does not prove that point. I knew it probably would be quoted. You hold "he" was Adam. I hold "he" was Satan. In verse 19, the creature is awaiting the advent or arrival of man. The creature was already subject to corrutpion. The creature wil be free from the bondage of corruption when Satan is bound in Hell. As to REV. 20:14 . It further proves what I just said. Death and Hades will be thrown into the lake of Fire. When Satan is cast to the lake of fire, death is removed from the Earth.

Just what "he" are you referring to? In Romans 5:12 it refers to a "man" that let sin enter. 1Cor. 15 contrasts the difference between the first man, and the last Adam. Satan is not a man. He is a serpent, the Devil

Adams sin brought death to human beings, death was already in operation in the animal and plant kingdom.

How do you know? The bible says differently.

LT

[larryt]

Yes! You're both saying what I've been thinking too! In the scope of eternity, us being believers, how important is it? It happened and it's wonderful! I'd much rather spend time thinking how awesome God is and how awesome His creation than how it exactly happened. It might've happened in a way our human minds can't even conceive, but He sure did a great job!

Amen! Let's give thanks to our wonderful and awesome God for His creation and stop trying to figure it all out. He did it all - and it was created by Him and for His good pleasure!

Figuring it all out is just what God intends.

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

But maybe your bible doesn't say STUDY.

lt

I'm not sure how to take your comment "maybe your bible doesn't say STUDY" I am sorry but I take offense if that is meant for Lori, billie and I. I agree that we need to study the bible but there are certainly more important areas of the bible that we can study. Why is it such a bad thing to simply accept God's word and the mystery of creation. I also disagree with your statement "figuring it all out is what God intends" Well, I know what is in my heart and what the Holy Spirit gives me. I know what God has done for me and how He has changed my life. We can study to our hearts content but we will never figure it ALL out. I think He would rather us have fellowship with one another than disecting whether the world was created in 7 days or 6 days. There is a time for everything. We study, we learn scripture and we pray.

I truly resent your statement about my bible and implying that it says "doesn't STUDY" and you had to empahsize the word study as if we are ignorant. Your post was totally in appropriate. It could have been stated with words that would lift us up and encourage us to STUDY. But your sarcastic remark is offensive. I speak for myself. And you don't know me or what I do in my walk with God. Please do not presume that I do not study. I'm going to stop now because if I go on I am afraid that I may not be setting a good example. Nuff said. ::is just shocked and dismayed at this judgement::

I did not presume anything. What does your bible say in 2Tim. 2:15? If your bible says something different than mine here then we have different bibles.( another thread) If it doesn't say study here I give that as a reason that sound doctrine has gone the way of the dodo.

I find that my bible seems to put more emphasis on, and warnings about, sound doctrine than on fellowship. Those that are heretics(fosterers of unsound doctrine) I am to avoid. If I don't know sound doctrine then I won't know those that could harm me spiritually and avoid them. I resent the implication that I am to lay aside sound doctrine and "fellowship" with all that name the name of Christ.

Jude 1:3

[MrsSealedEternal]

The passage you just used does not prove that point. I knew it probably would be quoted. You hold "he" was Adam. I hold "he" was Satan. In verse 19, the creature is awaiting the advent or arrival of man. The creature was already subject to corrutpion. The creature wil be free from the bondage of corruption when Satan is bound in Hell. As to REV. 20:14 . It further proves what I just said. Death and Hades will be thrown into the lake of Fire. When Satan is cast to the lake of fire, death is removed from the Earth.

Just what "he" are you referring to? In Romans 5:12 it refers to a "man" that let sin enter. 1Cor. 15 contrasts the difference between the first man, and the last Adam. Satan is not a man. He is a serpent, the Devil

Adams sin brought death to human beings, death was already in operation in the animal and plant kingdom.

How do you know? The bible says differently.

LT

I was wondering the same thing?

[larryt]

As to your aserting that animals could not die before man sinned, What scripture do you base that on? That argument is the last ditch defense of a "young earth" creationist. It gets ripped to shreds every time it is used. Most good "young earth" creationists have shelved that argument.

Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Ro 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time [are] not worthy [to be compared] with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Re 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Here we see that death entered with the occurrence of sin. In the second passage the creature is waiting for the deliverance from the bondage of corruption due to sin. That will happen when sin is completely done away with at the end.

I don't walk by sight but by faith. If what my eyes see contradicts the Word of God that which I see is WRONG!

LT

The passage you just used does not prove that point. I knew it probably would be quoted. You hold "he" was Adam. I hold "he" was Satan. In verse 19, the creature is awaiting the advent or arrival of man. The creature was already subject to corrutpion. The creature will be free from the bondage of corruption when Satan is bound in Hell. As to REV. 20:14 . It further proves what I just said. Death and Hades will be thrown into the lake of Fire. When Satan is cast to the lake of fire, death is removed from the Earth.

Just what "he" are you referring to? In Romans 5:12 it refers to a "man" that let sin enter. 1Cor. 15 contrasts the difference between the first man, and the last Adam. Satan is not a man. He is a serpent, the Devil

Adams sin brought death to human beings, death was already in operation in the animal and plant kingdom.

How do you know? The bible says differently.

LT

You are conveniently mixing terminology. The Bible does not say death was "not" in the animal kingdom before Adam sinned. It simply does not say that. Romans 5:12 is referring sin entering into the world and affecting the human race.

I believe it is you that is conveniently mixing terminology.

In Rom. 5:12 the word "WORLD" is the greek kosmos. It's first and primary meaning is:

1) an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government

God had created an apt and harmonious arrangement/order and sin entered it and death(separation from God and all that is holy) by sin. This verse says that sin destroyed the order/arrangement that God created.

That is why in Rom. 8 we are told that the whole creation is waiting for the redemption/restoration of the pre-fall order.

LT